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field crew sizes-future employment

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field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by James M on Mar 6, 2011 3:18 pm

Hello All,

I was hoping for some insight from professionals on the future direction of Land Surveying as an industry. I was laid off when the economy took a dive back in early 2009. I have been trying to get back into the industry since.When I was let go I was changing  positions from a rodman to an instrument operator. I have sent out countless resumes in the new york tri state area. I have recieved minimal or no response from anyone. I have also noticed the growing trend of the one man crew. As the weather begins to break I am seeing mostly robotic and GPS instruments being used. The continued use of such instruments means that an already tight job market with become tighter. I truly did love working in the surveying industry. Being part of a field crew was an amazing balance of physical and mental labor.
 
Which brings me to my question. Will smaller and one man field crews be a permenat trend and should i be discouraged from continuing pursuit in this field, or is this a bubble type trend where once workloads pick up extra crew members would be expected to be (re)hired?
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Radar on Mar 6, 2011 4:34 pm

It's a crap shoot.

40 years ago, everyone basically did the same thing. You had a Party Chief, Instrument man and Rod man. Generally, the Party Chief ran the head chain and kept the notes; the Rod Man ran the tail of the chain and the rod; the Instrument Man turned the angles, gave them line and read the rod. You started as the Rod Man, watched and learned how the other people on the crew did their job and was promoted accordingly. There were very few Colleges in the country that offered a degree in surveying. I grew up in Omaha NE and there was nothing available in my area. I did take a few semesters of drafting and math at the local Community College but I learned everything else on the job.

Things changed rapidly; with the advent of the EDM, you really didn't need the Rod Man any more. You could do the work faster with only 2 guys, but they both needed to be skilled to be efficient. And not everyone was doing things the same way anymore. Each company was developing different field procedures, with different field equipment, there were very few 'standards' left.

Soon after that, data collector software, the robot and GPS, developed into a very efficient 1 man crew. You only needed a helper if you were setting a lot of stakes, clearing line through a brushy area or needed to walk a long ways.

So to answer your question; yes, the survey profession has come to a point where one person can do most of the work faster than 2 or 3. The trouble is, where are they getting the training? Remember I said not everyone was doing things the same? How many different Total Stations, Robots, GPS, Data Collectors and Software do you think there are? That's right, there are more than you can think of. How do you teach surveying when everyone is doing it differently? That was a rhetorical question. You certainly can teach history, theory, error analysis and basics but the apprentice will still need to be taught the ways of the company.

If a company is smart, they will develop a summer intern program and employ students on their way to earning a degree. I had a student stop and talk to me the other day. He asked if he could ride along and observe the work I do. I said sure, but haven't had any field work since then. I surely will give him a call if something comes along.

The economy is still weak and it will be slow to come back. Boeings recent big contract will be a boost to this region and it sounds like the southern oil fields are gearing up, but I hate to think about what it's like in most other parts of this country.

As far as advice to anyone wanting to get into the field of surveying:
Get an education and hang in there.

Like Warren Buffet said: America's best days lie ahead.


They can not come to soon for me.

Douglas Casement, PLS



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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Richard Sincovec on Mar 6, 2011 4:51 pm


We've had discussions along those lines ourselves.

We've been using one-man crews almost exclusively for nearly the last decade.  For some jobs, we'll sometimes double up our guys, depending on the task at hand.  But most of the time, one-man crews allow us to maximize our flexibility and ability to respond to the needs of our clients, while simultaneously maximizing the profit for the company.

This has been working well so far, but it's created some concern over the future, since so much of Surveying is based in experience.  Once upon a time, we typically had two- or three-man crews.  Junior people would be hired on as a rod man or IO, and they would gain experience that way.  Now, we're running one-man crews nearly all the time.  So how do junior people get experience?  It takes a fair bit of experience before someone can handle being a one-man crew.  At the moment, there are still enough firms running two- and three-man crews that junior people can still get experience in those firms, then come to work for companies like us once they reach a certain level of knowledge.  But as more and more firms move to one-man crews, what effect will that have on our industry?

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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by christ lambrecht on Mar 6, 2011 5:43 pm

One man crews are here to stay, can't imagine putting a 2 man crew on a job with the newer robots. Last year we invested in new equipment (robotic + GPS) for our crews and switched from 2-man teams to solo operators on 95% of our jobs.
Educating new surveyors will indeed be done in a different way but I'm a strong supporter of education on the job, every part of the job - from office to field to office. It's an investment that needs to be done, the people in the field need to know how the office part is organized, what is expected, how the data is processed and what our engineers are using it for.  I try to explain that we don't simply measure points and lines but our surveys are part of the solution of a problem the engineers have to deal with. So when working solo you must be able to process, evaluate en edit your raw line work. Monitoring is needed in every step of this process, some learn fast and others need more time ...

One of the first CAD-books I read a long time ago stated "You EDIT more then you DRAW" meaning that with CAD you draw few new lines, arcs our texts, but you will find yourself editing those a lot.
For surveyors this could read as "You CHECK more then you MEASURE"

chr.
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Andrew Gaiennie on Mar 6, 2011 8:58 pm

What your experiencing is the shift from field work to office work in the profession. Robotic and scanning tools make field work easier and put more responsibility on the office crew to produce a sell-able product. There are actually a lot of opportunities for spatial professionals, but giving the lack of experience most people have with our industry your going to have to get out their and make them yourself. Hoping for a carrier doing field work is only viable around areas of high development or natural resources, which insulate survey companies from the rest of the market. 

Networking is more effective than sending out resumes and making phone calls. I spent months doing just that looking for my last job, and ended up getting hired two days after I called a friend at a large survey company that had an office an hour away. Go to the government body and ask for the surveyor or GIS people. Get in their company, go to your local surveyor society meetings and keep asking for opportunities. Consider going to school for GIS certification or even a full degree. Newer tools and methods require the newer education than the current generation of professionals has, and the potential profits are huge for the people who understand how to use these advancements. 
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Surveying has turned the corner from 100s of years of tradition, starting slowly

Posted by RADU on Mar 7, 2011 3:59 am

  
Surveying has turned the corner from 100s of years of  tradition, starting slowly in the 70's and now racing in the 2000's towards unknown new horizons.

The new breed of surveyor is a specialist in an overall microcosm  of expertise. The intimacy is such that you can not afford to let go of any stage of a process.

The luxury of an I man or rod man in traditional surveying crew are rapidly diminishing. I would suggest that in a few years in the US that you will need a piece of paper to say that you are a graduate and then another to say you have relevant experience in a particular field of surveying.

Nothing new as other parts of the world have already invented the survey wheel.  Which by the way does not mean that they all have appreciated or use that invention. 

The future of US surveying is in with a Tertiary education.
RADU VALUE ADDING SURVEYOR
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Mike Falk on Mar 7, 2011 8:31 am

Crews are getting smaller, equipment and processes are improving. You will need to know how to integrate these aspects throughout an entire project.

Invest in an education in whatever profession you find intriguing. It usually comes down to a simple choice;  Get busy living, or get busy dying.

Watch this one year old video and imagine the future http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoyn32iyELs

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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by MountainHermit on Mar 7, 2011 12:18 pm

James, if you want to stay in surveying, try to learn the technical office side.  CAD & GIS are going to be drivers in surveying for the foreseeable future.  I am not a big fan of solo survey crews, but that is where we are and where we will likely be down the road.  From what I have seen, it's still a trade off because the price of the equipment for solo operation will pay for an additional crew member.  Plus, there is the real problem of safety if there is only one crew member in the field.  Let's also remember that equipment is stolen from sites more often than we hear.

With the growth of real time systems in GPS, the stealing is not as big a consideration I suppose.  Training new surveyors is really a problem that will grow as more companies go to one-person crews.  I would say that besides learning the office side of things, you might want to consider a temporary move if you are able, and try for an internship with BLM for a summer or two.  They train, and you would gain a fair amount of survey knowledge in addtion to the instrumentation.
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by James M on Mar 7, 2011 2:41 pm

First off I would like to thank all of you  for your replies. They are all helpful to me.

I do agree with MountainHermit intesnly on saftey issues while working on a solo crew. If anything happens to the individual performing the survey not only is his/her life in jeopardy, but so is the equipment. I also believe a pair of individuals is much less likely to bend of fold to the pressure of a contractor or home owner asking for a bend to the rules. I also feel a crew will traverse more efficently then an individual, especially when performing closed loops.

I do have experience in the office as well. I have completed construction computations, deed compilation and analysis, as well as, drafting preliminary, as-builts, finals, and topo surveys. However i do feel that i need a better education in all of these areas as well as more CAD knowledge. I am from Long Island and as far as im aware there arent any local survey programs. I would move to a location with approriate schooling in the area. Im just nervous to make such a move, absorb more educational debt then i already have, and still be stuck not being able to find any work.

Mr Sincovec also draws upon a major issue which never crossed my mind. Surveying is based on experience. I once had to train an individual who was fresh out of college with a survey degree. He was very knowledgeable in the technical and theoretical aspects of surveying. However, college couldnt prepare him for the business side of surveying especially staying on budget for jobs, dealing with clients, and practical applications of theories. I have a BA in mathematics, all my surveying experience was obtained on the job. Each survey is unique, error displacement can be effected by so many factors that I feel it is really learned mostly on site.

Thanks again
James
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Radar on Mar 7, 2011 4:25 pm

" I am from Long Island and as far as I,m aware there aren't any local survey programs. I would move to a location with appropriate schooling in the area. I'm just nervous to make such a move, absorb more educational debt then I already have, and still be stuck not being able to find any work.



I'm surprised that there is nothing available, maybe somebody in that area will see this and point you to a resource. But it sounds like you've already got some education, maybe you could test out of a few classes and get your degree faster. I would also be surprised if your state society didn't offer scholarships. I know that LSAW has some great programs that have helped a lot of students.

Set some goals for yourself and decide how you are to achieve them. If your goal is to become a licensed professional surveyor, what requirements does your state have to obtain that. Some states combine education and experience to the minimum amount of time to sit for the test.

Experience is always important and it's tough to get when there are very few jobs. Good luck in your endeavors, I wish you well.

Douglas Casement, PLS



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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by RADU on Mar 7, 2011 5:31 pm

Following Doug's comments. James You casually  mentioned that you have a math degree. Are you aware that there are states that accept a degree.

A one time regular poster and great friend , Ian Wilson actually majored in chemistry! he saw the light and has relished his career change , becoming a LS in California.

Seems it may be a simple as finding an appropriate state and pitching for a job in those states.

Good luck.


RADU
RADU VALUE ADDING SURVEYOR
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Richard Sincovec on Mar 7, 2011 5:56 pm


:
From what I have seen, it's still a trade off because the price of the equipment for solo operation will pay for an additional crew member.

That isn't really an accurate assessment...

For many tasks, we find a one man crew + robot can accomplish roughly the same amount as a two-man crew.  A two-man crew + robot speeds up some things (e.g., one person shooting, the other marking stakes), but usually doesn't make a significant difference.  Let's err on the side of using two-man crews, though, and assume that a two-man crew can finish in six hours the same amount of work that a one-man crew can do in eight hours.  Let's say we also bill $100/hour for a one-man crew, and $120 for a two-man.

Now let's look at how this plays out.  First, let's assume we have two one-man crews, and they each have an eight-hour job.  So both jobs will be finished in one day, and the company will bill $1600 for that day.  Then the next day, the two one-man crews can go out again, and pull in another $1600.

Now let's assume we double them up, and send out a single two-man crew.  That first day, they'll finish one job, but will only be 1/3 of the way through the second job.  The second job won't be finished until at least mid-day on the second day.  And the company will only bill $960 for a full day, as opposed to $1600 with two one-man crews.

So by sending out two guys together as a two-man crew, the company's billings are less than 2/3 of the billings for two one-man crews.  And when using a two-man crew, one client will get his work a couple hours faster, but the other client won't get his work done until the following day.  So one-man crews allow us to be more responsive to our clients, while simultaneously increasing income for the company by a significant amount.

Now multiply that out over the ~five year lifespan of an instrument, and you can see why more and more companies are switching to one-man crews.  The difference in cost between a robot and non-robot is not really significant when compared to the difference in potential billings.  Not to mention, one-man crews increase flexibility and responsiveness to clients.
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Floyd Carrington on Mar 7, 2011 8:51 pm

James,

To answer Radar's post above there are not any survey problems on Long Island. There are some courses here and there that will help but no surveying programs. To my knowledge the state society does not give out scholarships however the regional association on Long Island does. Also the regional association will send out your resume to all their members. If you are interested in scholarship information and/or having your resume sent out, the contact number in my profile is good.

As was mentioned above I also have safety concerns about one person field crews. Locally a few years ago a surveyor was set up on the center line of a road cutting in a house and had a heart attack. By the time somebody found him he was "room temperature".

Floyd Carrington LS, CPESC, CPSWQ Quogue,NY
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by PJq apio on Mar 8, 2011 7:29 am

A pipeline surveying company boss told me it makes no sense to being driving a $40k survey vehicle
with $60k of surveying equipment and then put all of that with just one surveyor.  For myself, it was me
with a helper sometimes. 
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Paul in PA on Mar 8, 2011 9:13 am

Interesting assumption that every job breaks down to a perfect 8 hour day and that a second person means it can be done in 5, then having to split the next job because the 3 hours is insufficient. I take it crews never ever work a 10 hour day.

Plus nobody has yet accounted for the work time lost when the robot takes a ride to the pawn shop in trade for some drugs. That loss is even worse if your data is in the robot. Sometimes getting it back is a much worse deal than having to replace it. Not every job can be 100% robot or 100% RTK, but almost any job can be a mixture of both. Not every solo crew can economically have a robot and GPS with them every day, but with a 2 man crew, it makes more sense. Assuming you have a rate of $100/hr for a solo crew and $120/hr for 2 men, 2 men using a robot and RTK at the same time is then worth $150/hr. All this hourly talk is wasted on those that bid a job lump sum, which I feel is the majority. 

Paul in PA
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Re: Paul in PA

Posted by Richard Sincovec on Mar 8, 2011 10:39 am


Paul, I can't really tell what you're arguing, but it sounds like you're dismissing the one-man crew.  If that's what you're saying, then I hope our competitors think like you...  ;)
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by MountainHermit on Mar 8, 2011 9:36 pm

I'm betting that Paul doesn't bid on the same types of jobs you do.  I was not looking at revenue with regard to the one-person crew + robot/GPS vs two-person crews with conventional or multiple rtk units.  If you did biz here, you would not be billing or getting that much unless you're tight with the oil/gas folks.  I was looking at crew pay/salary which is a less volatile thing around which to plan the budget.  The cost of a good robot would pay an extra crewmember's salary for at least a year, maybe more.  And, while some companies do steal crew from others, they don't pawn them on ebay and you don't have to pay the stolen crewmember after they're gone. 

James, ACSM offers scholarship money.  Check them out at www.acsm.net
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Kevin Samuel on Mar 9, 2011 12:37 am

I think that small surveying firms will no longer make most of their money from construction staking.  Heavy construction contractors are hiring their own surveyors and doing the work themselves.  Maybe there are opportunities for you performing relevant work with some construction companies?

I am no expert in LS regulations on a nationwide level, but I would hazard a guess that construction staking is a "grey area' in a majority of states. IE very few states require that construction staking be done by an LS.  Moving forward, unless contracts stipulate that an LS does the staking, I feel more of the mapping, design surveying and construction staking will be taken over by non-land surveyors.  I assert that only the highest liability projects will require or consult an LS (even if all projects could benefit an LS being involved).  Maybe more messes to clean up because there wasn't an LS involved during construction?

Land surveyors have always held the role of evaluating evidence, locating property boundaries, documenting the boundaries and establishing new property lines.  In my experience, this is one area that is clearly protected in state statutes.

GIS is great, scanning is great, CAD is great, LIDAR is great but in the end these are just tools.  There are definitely opportunites in these areas for savvy Land Surveyors, but I wouldn't rely on technology as a crutch in this profession.  Technology is a fickle mistress.  Stay current, proficient and knowledgeable; but I wouldn't build your career around a technical skill; focus on your professional development.

I think the management skills of surveyors are really going to be put to the test in the next 2 decades.  Bolstering skills in these areas will definitely help: construction management, project management and general business administration.

Once you have a clear idea of the area(s) of Land Surveying that interest you,  I would suggest finding a good mentor.

Respectfully,

Kevin Samuel, PLS
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by benc on Mar 9, 2011 2:17 am

when you say 1-man survey crew do you really mean just 1 guy? who will help carry the tripod ? the case? heaven forbid if you are using a leica robot. have you seen how big   those cases are? 

what if the site is not accesible by vehicle? how will you carry all your gear?

who will cut the branch or twig that gets in the way of the line of  sight? 


+++++++++++++++++ Ben--- Floating somewhere off the coast of Cebu, Philippines
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Re: The Cost Of A Good Robot ?

Posted by Paul in PA on Mar 9, 2011 9:19 am

The cost to compare a robot with a second crewperson is the difference between a robot and a standard instrument. At the most it is one summer of work.

In reply to Richard Sincovec, I am a one man crew 90% of the time, I bid lump sum, I have about 2 weeks of hub pounding in my lifetime. I don't work often in high theft risk areas. Also I am not fully dependent on my own work, and fill in with another surveyor as his crew.

I was critiqueing the analysis.

The future of the two man crew looks dismal, as does the future of surveying.

Paul in PA
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Rusty Chain on Mar 10, 2011 7:01 pm

There are some jobs where a two man crew is more productive than 1 man and a robot or GPS.  Those are typically on tasks where the guy at the rod needs to carry a lot of other gear and/or material, such as staking jobs, or on mapping projects where there is sufficient time for the instrument to shoot one target while the other is on the move.

I agree with Mr. Samuel with respect to large construction jobs.  Much of that work will be taken over by machine guidance, although if there is more precise staking associated with a project, that will be around for a while.  Smaller construction jobs, even if not requiring a high level of precision, will still need to be staked by field crews for a few years until the technology appears to alleviate that need.  I don't know what that technology will look like, but you can bet it will come before most of us retire.

And those mapping projects which may be more efficient with two rods now, or which require the accuracies afforded by standard methods won't last long either.  As remote sensing methods(ground based and aerial LiDAR) are improved for accuracy and made more affordable, the need to "take shots" will fade away.  along with the need for that type of data will go the need for the position known as "rodman" or "chainman", depending upon where your from.

One man crews, except where safety dictates otherwise, are going to become the new standard.  Those of us who are saying that may be wrong.  Over some amount of time we may find that except for a few particularly driven introverts, two average field people can more than double a lone crewman's work.  But where technology is removing the percentage of human effort compared to the amount of machine effort, the working psychological effect of teamwork may not have much effect.

My advice for anyone wanting to stay with surveying would be to keep up with the technology.  Better yet, get a degree and keep up with the technology.  Whether or not you need to be fully familiar with the operation or only familiar with the capabilities will depend upon whether you are operating at a technical (field, calcs, & CAD) or at a professional (porject management and above) level.  If you are a solo practitioner or in a small company, you probably operate at both levels.

 

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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by stratman59 on Mar 15, 2011 3:47 am

I went robotic in the mid 90's, mainly due to the ridiculous tax policy by the U.K government. I was paying nearly as much in tax and national insurance (health service) per employee as I was paying them in wages. Add into that holiday and sick pay, pension schemes etc. And then after two years of training they waltz into the office and demand a rise, if you said "no way" they were out of the door to another job that would pay more. The only thing I would add is that the surveyor using a robotic has to work damn hard and earns his money. If you have a 5 or 6 hundred metre traverse loop to observe that's a lot of walking and carrying of tripods.  I have to just add, and I know I’ll sound like an old timer here, but from a U.K perspective (don’t know about the U.S) but when I was training I accepted I had to do all the crap menial jobs until I knew enough to do the nicer more interesting jobs. These days if I asked a junior to get a machete and start hacking down a patch of undergrowth I’d get answered with two words.   No, my Trimble never answers back.
 

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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by jkeithmaxwell on Mar 17, 2011 8:35 am


Like most of you, we've been using robotic total stations for a while now. While there hasn't been a lot of jobs lately that have benefited from this, I believe we have been able to save substantially over the years using this technology. And, most of those savings come in the form of reduced labor costs because of reduced crew size. We have been running 2-man crews (or sometimes one man and one woman) on ALL jobs for a number of years. We've also done a lot of jobs with a 1-man crew. (Yes, we still call it a crew because it's easier AND we call the robotic total station "Robbie." Not my idea, it would have been much more witty.)
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Re: field crew sizes-future employment

Posted by Caj on Mar 17, 2011 6:04 pm

I am not a land surveyor or holds any surveying degree like most of you guys here, but I have been running an online campaign for robotic total stations and land surveying sites. Because of this, I get the opportunity to see from an unbiased point how total stations save a land surveyor some money, time, and effort. The downside however is the fact that because of these land surveying equipment, the employment rate for land surveyors dropped (As what James has been telling us about). I do feel sorry about this, especially during this tough economic times. However, to those land surveyors out there, I would recommend cutting down on your Yellow page ads and focus on promoting your services online. As someone who has been doing this for quite a while now, I could attest that the land surveyors whom I have worked for received more calls than what they usually get from traditional advertising. Believe me, It's way cheaper and more effective.

Yes, get a good total station and increase your web presence and you'll never have to worry of unemployment ever again. 

Hope this helps!
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