Mentor Issues - How to cope?

All,
I have been an avid follower of this board for years and just recently signed up. Here is my predicament.... I have someone I have held in high reverence for years. He was my dept. head at our last shop and now we are parallel in our responsibilities at our current firm. He has 27 years exp. to my 12, we both are PLS's and share duties on the same project. He and I both are finding monuments, creating boundary and parcel lines in Acad to make easements and documents. However this is where it gets interesting, when I go back to create an easement in parcels he generated our draftsmen and I are finding errors. Deed plotting, lines that are not "snapped" to nodes and that gap or overlap in places, writing documents that do not close, ad nasuem. Just a general "sloppiness" in standards. The problem is I find most of my day correcting these errors and doing my job as well. When approached he gets very defensive, I dont believe it to be a "technology challenge" but rather an overall understanding of how to do things correctly. No one needs to lose their job, and I have a great deal of respect for him, but things shouldn't be this way.

Frustrated,
Mankind

Have you tried just handing his work back to him? Maybe redline it first?

Usually this begins a a cycle of denial and critical thought towards our para-professionals. When it comes from me I still find it difficult to revise and then have him create his portion, without it having a negative application towards the adjoining areas I am working on. Thanks for the response Mark.

Dude, You have to say something to him.
It's only right that you make him aware of the problems that you have encountered.  You could make it out as a "peer to peer" review, which should be going on anyway with two PLS's... 

Ask him to check your work, too.....

Ah, yes ACAD developed easement, lines, etc...  I know I may get flamed for this, but Surveying is not linework driven, it is point driven.  Long before CAD there were COGO programs that computed POINTS.  Inverses were between POINTS.  Linework and labeling are just a function of CAD.  If someone hasn't had the basics of CAD taught to them there will be errors because of what you are describing.  I have been in your position also, and you just need to bite the bullet and bring it up, offer your help if there is something that he does not understand, otherwise it will continue.  Best solution, get a COGO program that computes points, then, bring the points into CAD.  I wish we had one.

Thanks for posting DJ.
I totally understand the concept of points of computing from coordinate geometry, however whenever CAD is our tool for computing said points the linework that is derived  must be used , and fit. This isn't about an "old dog - new dog" concept just how to communicate effectively the reasons for doing correct work. If it were just my product I was concerned with it would be easier to convey these problems.

I went through a very similar issue with the person who had been my boss and mentor.  
In my case, the only real solution was to sit down with the company executives and apprise them of the situation. 
The extra work caused by the other guy was significant and was hurting the bottom line and causing lost profit.

You owe loyalty to both your company and your mentor.  However, if he is unwilling to work towards correcting his methods, then the company should not suffer as a result.  If you are unwilling to talk to the execs. and call the mentor to the carpet on it, then you are as responsible for the losses to the company as he is.  .

In my case, I did not lose the respect of my mentor or his friendship.  In fact, I gained respect as it was the right thing to do, and the only solution to right the ship. He recognized it in the long run, even though it was pretty ugly for the short term.  It was a wake up call that needed to be made.
 

At some point in your career, you find that line that separates the business and personal aspect. Just because he may be great at somethings doesn't mean is is great at everything. We all have our faults. Telling him is NOTHING PERSONAL. Its Business. Protecting the company is the right thing to do.  HOW to tell him, can be personal, It can be suggestive, but most importantly it should be done. Don't be meek either just state your case, your expectation and your approach to it.

From what you've stated in your initial post, I wonder if it is an ACAD shortfall.  This can be a touchy subject with me, since I have been on the receiving end of criticism about my professional competence based on how good a CAD technician I am.  ACAD and I are not friends, but I am functional with it.

That said, I have a suggestion or two for you.

1.  Stop the reverence stuff.  Your bar for your former mentor shouldn't be that high.  He's human, just like you and his talents are probably not the same as yours.  You need to talk with (not to) him, professional to professional.  He may need some training.  2.  Rather than focusing on the faults you should maybe try to find a way to simply state the problems to him and offer ways to fix them--find solutions that you both can live with.  He apparently doesn't work the way you do.  Is there a way to divvy up the tasks to play to each of your strengths?  As for the defensiveness, bull through it--don't tiptoe around him--& give him time to calm down and think about things.  Above all, avoid judging him.  Your goal has to be first and foremost to define the problem.  That will probably take input from Both of you.

Just Sayin'...:-)

Here is the key to the puzzle.

"sloppiness" in standards.

Actually you don't have sloppiness in standards. You simply don't have standards. When multiple people are working on a project with the same tools, in this case software, they all need to be following identical rules. Those rules need to be spelled out before you start. It is rather clear that is not the case in your situation. You need to come to an agreement on what "correctly:" actually is.

Your choices are simple. You need to come to some kind of agreement, or one of you needs to take full responsibility for the project. There are two other alternatives, remain frustrated, or just leave.
MLB

"NOTHING PERSONAL. Its Business."

Hmmm...where have I heard that before.....?

Thanks to all for the input. I think all points made here are quite valid and I have taken a direct approach to work together with him. Furthermore a decision was made by me to grab this project "by the horns" and make it my baby. It does become difficult when you have a personal relationship with someone you work with (I guess thats why we don't lend friends money) and problems come up. Our profession is one of continual learning and its not always the X&Y's we have to study on.

Regards,
Mankind

DJ Schwarz:
Ah, yes ACAD developed easement, lines, etc...  I know I may get flamed for this, but Surveying is not linework driven, it is point driven.  Long before CAD there were COGO programs that computed POINTS.  Inverses were between POINTS.  Linework and labeling are just a function of CAD.  If someone hasn't had the basics of CAD taught to them there will be errors because of what you are describing.  I have been in your position also, and you just need to bite the bullet and bring it up, offer your help if there is something that he does not understand, otherwise it will continue.  Best solution, get a COGO program that computes points, then, bring the points into CAD.  I wish we had one.

I agree with you.  However, it is sloppy for the lines to not be connected to the points.  Every bearing and distance we put on a survey is between points, and there is also a line there, but the points hold precedence.

I also forgot to add that, yes, the main reason for mistakes such as these is plain sloppyness as many have already mentioned.  In a hurry, no one checking the work.... the list goes on. 

Mankind. a couple of points from an old phart that has "hung ten" through the  technology explosion.

Remember that your mentor may have only used cad  for a short period of time and probably taught himself as the need arose.

I also know that engineers were culprits here  in early design/cad days as they would change/amend design in calcs module then simply amend text dimensions in CAD with out changing line work . Reason "because line work changes on a hard copy plot would not be noticeably different"  .

Well that changed when I said that I used their Cad drawing for set out and that small changes on plans  were critical at real scale!

While you have now posted your plan of action, perhaps your company should hold a refresher course for CPU points that also addresses issues as after all the more you know, the more you know the less you know!


RADU

When a member of your company needs to understand how to do their work better with the tools they are give to work with, someone needs to step up and explain and/or give instruction to get them up to speed.

Some basic principals need to be addressed on a company wide basis for what the expected company policies are of cad techs and their work.

There are many  reasons that can cause cad to be sloppy and not as it is intended. I had a tech that was constantly training himself and learn new things about the program on most every drawing he worked on. In doing so he was altering the coords ever so slightly from what was drawn and the previous linework was not fitting the points anymore.

It would appear that developing a working relationship within the company would be very important for both to attempt or your workplace could become an 800lb gorilla on your back ready to crap all over the entire company at any time.

.

Firms should develope manuals of procedures written for their particular firm's hardware , software, personel experience segmented into procedures for initial office procedures  from job coming in , field , field reduction, cad , office finalisation.

These manuals constantly evolving as both weaknesses  and enhancements found.

That way everbody is always rowing towards the finish line in sync and best of all in the same direction.

RADU