Buisness Idea

So reading the latest in blogs and newsletters has lead me to believe operating in a 3D environment with scanners as data collectors is the way to go. Where I'll be working, robotic total stations aren't looked upon as trustworthy and I'm lucky if 1 in 10 PLS's truly understand the GPS equipment they have. 

Here's my question: could I take advantage of this lack of advancement by investing in the hard and soft-ware and loaning my services out to the established companies? Assuming I do create a valuable data source, would you be willing to buy the segment you need for a project from me instead of sending your own crew out? 

It is hard for me to imagine a locale which does not use robotic instruments.  I am a solo surveyor; I rely mightily on my robotic.  I experience unadjusted traverse closures in the 1:50,000 range regularly.  At any rate, I proposed a similar idea to a colleague of mine prior to becoming licensed.  My idea was to buy a robotic and market myself to surveyors.  The problem my colleague saw at the time was liability.  Who assumes the liabilty of errors?  You or your client?  Additional food for thought is insurance.  My insurance company does not allow the use of subcontractors, unless I specifically check that box on my insurance form.  Then, I would have to collect proof of insurance from my subs. 

If other firms in your area are seriously lacking in the types of equipment you speak of, it may be worth the time, effort, and expense of creating the niche market.  The downside of a niche market is that your creative thinking will lead the way for others. 

I laughed at the comment about the traditional ts, imagine working with the best and most advanced systems just to have to be put on a crew like you described. It gets frustrating knowing there is a better way and no one wants to listen.

As far as liability, that's on whoever stamps the documents. The big thing I like about scanning equipment is that it almost doesn't matter who operates it. Its taking a survey-grade picture of the environment and its up to the PLS to pull the information they want out of it. My value is that I understand how to work with the 3D point clouds and come with the ability to turn survey data into GIS solutions.

And I would love to lead a revolution in the way we do work in my area, more 3D source data means better GIS and other location-based solutions for me to profit from.

This thread is a great example of simply not understanding the problem. Let's give Falk props for attending SPAR. But it doesn't appear as though he learned much. He watched the "traditional" survey crew operate and made an assumption. He didn't investigate.

I have been following the progress of scanning in the mainstream. At the moment, in this economy, it simply hasn't proven to be cost effective yet. I live in a "high tech" town. Yet most of the big jobs I see under construction are still using conventional equipment. As a somewhat interested party I typically stop off and visit the sites and talk to the folks on the site. Trust me- this is a better indicator than BLOGs.The answer is pretty consistent. The ROI for equipment and training does not support the capital outlay.

Back in the 1980's, I used to hear the same stuff about GPS. "It was never going to be competitive for small jobs". That evolved along with the technology and staffing. 

Way back in 1990 we sent out a questionnaire to all of the survey firms in this area with about twenty questions regarding GIS. The dataset still exists. It reads like a comedy show today. But it is a snapshot of survey opinions about twenty years ago. Most of those opinions have changed. But not surprisingly to me, some haven't.

The wheels of progress don't always turn at warp speed.
MLB

Mr. Gaiennie,

You are definitely thinking outside the box and I applaud you for that.  However, there are often good reasons why others have not taken advantage of outside the box opportunities in the past.  Such is the case here.

If you were to implement what you describe there are some very definite problems.  Since you are in Alabama I refer you to the Alabama Code section 330-X-14.05(h)**.  That section of code addresses ethics .  It states:

Should the engineer or land surveyor be presented with a Certification to be
signed, sealed, and dated as summarized in Rule 330-X-11-.04 and defined in
Rule 330-X-2-.01(8), he or she should carefully evaluate that Certification to
determine if any of the circumstances set forth below would apply. The engineer or
land surveyor who signs, seals, and dates Certifications which: (a) relate to matters
which are beyond the engineer’s or land surveyor’s technical competence, or (b)
involve matters which are beyond the engineer’s or land surveyor’s scope of
services actually provided, or (c) relate to matters which were not prepared under
the engineer’s or land surveyor’s responsible supervision, direction or control are
subject to disciplinary action pursuant to Rule 330-X-16. If any of these
circumstances would apply, the engineer or land surveyor shall either: (a) modify
the Certification to limit its scope to those matters which the engineer or land
surveyor can properly sign, seal, and date, or (b) decline to sign the Certification.

I have underlined a section of the code which pinpoints the main issue.  If you go out on a job and gather lots of data and then try to sell it to me, I was not in responsible charge of the gathering of that data, and did not control the gathering of it.  Therefore I could not sign and seal documents prepared from that data.  The only way for me to be able to use that data would be if you and I BOTH sign and seal the product, each of us taking responsibility for the portion of the work done under our direction, control and supervision.

In addressing the question of liability you state:  that's on whoever stamps the documents.  Exactly right.  Except it is a problem as stated above.

I hasten to add one other thing here.  Unless and until you are licensed, then you can not be in responsible charge of gathering any data.  That role is the sole domain of the licensed professional.  (Whether every licensed professional properly exercises that responsibility or not is a different matter.)

Plus, unless and until you are licensed, you will discover it is not possible for you to get Professional Liability Insurance to cover your risk.  I can not get Medical Mal-practice Insurance because I am not a Doctor.  You will not be able to get Professional Liability Insurance for the same reason.  As of right now, you are not licensed.

Again, let me state that I like how you are thinking.  The problem is not that.  The problem is that there are far too many so called professionals who will readily take just any old data prepared with who knows what standard of care and turn that data into what is supposed to be a professional product.  The old saying about Garbage In = Garbage Out is just as true today as it was years ago.  I suspect we will be finding out more and more painfully about that in the next few years.

Larry P

**As I stated above this code is from Alabama.  Every state code I have seen also contains similar language.
 

I just re-read my post. I dont want to come off as negative to your ideas, as it is always great to have forward thinking employees. Its just my prior experience in what recent graduates think versus what actually happens in the real world.

This is turning out to be a great topic, thanks for putting the effort into your responses!

I believe in constant evolution, so if my fellow professionals want to take advantage of any of possible success I prove (or disprove) I would be flattered. They are welcome to try and keep up or lead the way themselves. I was raised by people who run their own companies, so the underling aspects of operating costs do not escape me. Using automation in any aspect of the process has a long and short term savings potential, and the ability to offer services to a wider customer base.

As far as the blogs, information on new technology is notoriously sketchy as the consumers digest the technical aspects of more complex equipment. These sources of information aggregate the experiences of many people in a few places and have proven to me to be more knowledgeable than my direct boss's. The story I am used to hearing is the one where the PLS was forced to fire their whole office before acquiring a new piece of equipment then experiencing an increase in profits and opportunities. That , to me, means they took no time to be concerned about anything that was different than what they knew (a typical attitude that dominated PLS's at my state conference last year) . A crew using a manual total station may be the most economical solution, but more likely its just the most convenient. That convince is what cost that field crew their jobs and as the tools get better at doing work, I don't see why it wouldn't threaten the unprepared professional as well.

The way Larry characterized this as happening would be problematic.  That is, you going out and gathering the data, and then selling it to another firm for their use.  You would be operating as a data clearinghouse with your client professionals having no input on the collection or processing of the data.  But that's not what I pictured.

What I pictured is you making this service available as a subconsultant, similar to how most firms hire out photogrammetric services.  You provide the equipment and the expertise to operate it while the client professional directs you in what to measure and specifies the accuracies to be met.  You then collect the data and provide a detailed technical report detailing the methods, the accuracies and specifications met, etc. with the data.  the professional in responsible charge then has the reports and raw data necessary to evaluate the suitability of the point cloud data to his or her work.  That professional thus maintains the required and ethical level of control of the project and its data.

But, Larry brings up another valid point.  Even if the client professional is in responsible charge of the overall project, you are procuring survey work and would presumably be certifying or otherwise warranting that the work performed and data provided meets certain specifications and that the data and related reports provided accurately reflect that.  In most states, and I assume AL is among them, require a person to be a licensed surveyor to offer these services.  There may be a way around that if you are acting as a contract crew fully under the direction of the client professional, but the tests for that are pretty stringent.  I didn't realize you were not licensed.  I missed that somewhere. 

Think your plan through very carefully with respect to keeping within the law, and then run it by your State Board to see if they would view it as a violation.  Also run it by an attorney who practices labor law to see if it would pass muster as far as the state labor department and taxing authorities viewing you as truly a consultant/contractor while still operating at the direction and control of your client(s).  My guess is this won't fly while you lack a license as a PLS.  But then again, a lot of photogrammetry companies seem to operate without a PLS on staff and without complications from the Board or other state authorities.

In my experience, survey companies send out crews with party chiefs to collect data and work on job sites. Few of these crews have a PLS on them, so my concept of providing source data to survey companies is a simple matter of trust (and insurance). The little time I have had with scanners leads me to believe it is not a matter of skill but thought that determines good end results. I know this equipment is expensive, but I have seen enough amazing results to think that I could make the tech affordable by leasing it out to the people that were interested.

Ultimately, I believe the PLS is going to have to be the man in the field. I'm following through on that belief by putting myself out there as an early adopter. Putting my money where my mouth is, so to speak.

PS: no harm no foul. I know I'm new at this, and I'm here exactly for your opinions and experience. Don't worry about insulting me, just be honest and there is nothing I won't be happy to learn from your responses.

"a simple matter of trust (and insurance)"... "not a matter of skill but thought that determines good end results"

Those are both reasons why the licensee needs to be incontrol of the process.  The more I read of your idea, the more confused I'm becoming.  At one point, you cite unlicensed chiefs on the copanies' field crews as justification why it would be OK for them to buy data from you.  Then later, you state that the PLS should be the one in the field.  These two statements seem to be at odds.  Are you saying that they should just rely on you and trust you to bring them good data, or are you saying that you are just going to bring the equipment and their PLS will have to go into the field to directly oversee the whole operation?

I want to address each of these statements separately, since I'm not sure how I could address them together.  The unlicensed chiefs are employees and working at the specific direction of the in-house PLS.  Presumably, the PLS gives them the research to support the field effort, research which was presumably done under the PLS's direction, then he says, I want you to go survey here, look for and tie in monuments shown here, here, and here, check for fences..... and so on.  The company has probably established certain expectations of how the work is to be performed and the chief would presumably be familiar with those expectations.  The PLS will either personally analyze, or review the analysis of a subordinate who he has trained and trusts.  This is all under his direct control.

By contrast, you show up and maybe he knows you from your flyer and a couple of meetings.  Beyond that, he doesn't know you from Adam.  So he is just supposed to tell you what needs to be mapped and then trust that you will get just what he needs to the specifications he requires?  He is just supposed to trust that the data you give him is accurate?  Sorry, but your inexperience is showing.  A responsible PLS doesn't just let his unlicensed party chief make all the decisions of what goes on in the field and doesn't just blindly start working off the coordinate points downloaded from the DC.  Trust is built through long experience together, and even then, the PLS has instituted a series of checks at each step of the survey.  Since we are all capable of mistake, it is always a trust but verify relationship.  Beyond that, the PLS knows that he must maintain good records and be familiar with the data, data manipulation, and analysis of each project in case there are questions to be answered.  Most surveyor's experience will bear out that it is that job where you did not keep good records or where the file gets misplaced that the questions will arise.

When you allude to insurance, are you referring to yours or the compnanies' that hire you?  If you are not licensed, you will not be able to get E&O or professional liability insurance, but only general liability which won't cover you for errors in the data.  If you are talking about the clients' insurance, the value of your data just went way down.  If the PLS of the client company is not in sufficient control of the work, and does not review the data and data handling, their insurance is likely to exclude coverage on it.

Your statement that the PLS needs to be the one on the ground makes sense in some organizations, but not on others.  With a scanner, the machine is locating all the features.  The operator doesn't need to exercise much judgment in that regard beyond choosing set up locations that will enable the scanner to adequately cover the site and otherwise meet the appropriate specifications.  For a company that typically has several crews, many or all of which may be lead by unlicensed chiefs, the PLS generally has responsibilities that may preclude him from spending much time in the field.  It may make sense for the PLS to be in the field for portions of the first job or two, but if he feels that he cannot trust you after that to follow his direction, then they should not be using you.  If your business model is to provide the equipment on a rental basis and some equipment training, then your business isn't likely to work out that well.

Equipment distributors already provide that service.  Why should any surveying/engineering firm rent equipment from you when they can do so directly from an established business, an equipment distributor who is likely to have a sales or tech support person with some level of factory training on all the bells and whistles, or perhaps even someone from the manufacturer show up to provide startup training?  Since you will presumably be making payments on the equipment you purchase, you have additional costs to cover that the distributor doesn't (more accurately, they have the cost of the equipment as well, but theirs is the distibutor cost where yours will be retail - significant difference).

I think that you need to put a lot more consideration into this idea before you will arrive at a workable business model providing a service that will have real value to engineering/surveying companies.

At this point, I'm getting the impression of someone eager to use and have success with cutting edge technology in the business world, but someone with very limited experience and knowledge of how existing professional services businesses operate and of the restrictions and duties placed upon them by the licensing and employment laws.  My advice to you would be to keep this idea in mind and work it over between now and some point after you've become licensed, and then consider embarking on it.  But until then, find a company that does quality work with what they have, and hopefully also sees the potential for the use of the newer technologies.  You will get good experience there and hopefully eventually get the opportunity to have success with those technologies under the direction of a knowledgeable PLS.

Andrew

I would say your business plan parallels that of an aerial mapping company; Supervision, Liability, stamping and all. Larry's analogy does not work. Check this link for mobile laser scanning in Alabama:

http://www.tridexsolutions.com/Tridex-PressRelease.pdf

 
Binge, I not only attended SPAR for my fifth year, I presented twice this year. I also sit on the advisory panel. I saw at SPAR that Land Surveyors were not the majority in attendance.  My company has provided laser scanning services for over a decade. Think what you want. Personally, I am glad many companies don't believe it to be worthwhile. I Know the California Highway patrol bought 5 laser scanners in 2006. I believe that they now own more than 10. So tell me how good your nose is Binge.

You can also see that many have a commodity mind set not a value added service mind set.

And yes I had plenty of time, over lunch, two days in a row, for myself and two employees to watch a survey crew with old technology and a crew that looked like Meth-heads. It is a pretty constant business plan for "cheap", non-visionary, commodity surveying firms.

Andrew, If your aim is low, that is  exactly what you will get.

I woud say get a license kid... you are still wet behind the ears

 I Know the California Highway patrol bought 5 laser scanners in 2006. I believe that they now own more than 10. So tell me how good your nose is Binge.

Police agencies own more scanners than surveyors here. They buy them with taxpayer dollars. California is in deficit in case you haven't heard.
MLB

Andrew Your "bright idea"  is actually old hat .

That said  I am simply saying that If it were as easy as the theory reckons then you would be standing in a long Q.

As an enthusiast, I am second to none, having  had the great fortune to "hang ten" on the surveying technology wave over the last 40 years.

In OZ the average small business lasts a couple of years. That alone signals that it is bleeding tough to survive in business . Those of us who do must have something we are doing right.

Small business is a tad like a desert plant that germinates an idea, that grows like heck because of the initial enthusiasm, rapidly blooms before shriveling for lack of finance, cash flow and all those unexpected bills and taxes.

We only hear and read of the great success stories that make a minuscule few millions and never hear of the countless belly up business ventures. Bit like the horse punter bragging about the big win.

So an idea does not generally rate as number one reason to start a business.

Most important is "how long can I survive expending my own saved money before I receive my first very own generated GROSS income?"

How am I going to be sure I have a product that is marketable and is realised as a "must have" because the purchaser can value add to justify the need for the product or service?

New kids off the block are often surprised at the sudden interest in their services, to eventually find out that the snoopers are bad paying clients from other places where their welcome is long  worn out.

Jumping in the deep end with a $100 plus K of technology requires you have significant asset backing to effectively lease the equipment or even if you are fortunate to have the ready bickies you still need time to market and massage the clouds. From my research into scanning I see the easy part is to gather the clouds , the grunt comes in making it into a meaningful product for a client who at the moment have no idea how to use unless it is an electronic cad drawing. I doubt if you have the time, temperament or the want to join dots. Unless you can find a competent experienced dot joiner ( over simplified) who likes sitting motionless with headphones belting out 24/7 music then you will have no guarantee of the final product.

I go back to autocad, even now there are people who reckon they are cad drafters, when they can only draw a line between two points, with no idea of 3D, lisp routines etc.


Technology comes with a steep learning curve and before you know it  business has evolved and moved on. For example I have  no longer any need for a staking process that  I devised when TS data recorders came out in the early 90s because machine control technology is now the accepted industry standard. I may add I developed the staking as an adjunct to my core cadastral practice to save me work and make me more money with the additional service.

Now leaving the best for last ... As long as there are Dad's Army crews still specializing in state of the ark technology and methods of surveying you must understand that many clients only know that type of surveying, so even forgetting those with TS and GPS,  you want to jump to the other end of the technology spectrum where so few know about the technology and even less have application need.

Sorry to appear to be negative and believe me there could be no one more enthusiastic than me, but the stark reality is the above is from the real world of 33 years experience in my own surveying practice.


That aside I would also suggest GFC is still rumbling its guts in the construction sphere.

RADU

"...Police agencies own more scanners than surveyors here..."

You really should get further out of your hole so that you can see more than just your shadow.

Here is a brief and not all inclusive list of companies in california with scanning:

http://www.rgasurveying.com/
http://www.rickengineering.com/hds_home.htm
http://www.calvada.com/portfolio/laser.php
http://www.mollenhauergroup.com/spotlight/index.html
http://www.arc-corporate.com/_content/press/press_releases/0909_gsa/index.htm
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS418US418&q=california+hds+laser+scanning#q=san+diego+hds+laser+scanning&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS418US418&prmd=ivns&ei=mOKRTaiSFoqcsQOd15CrDg&start=10&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=306ff18b2f1a3a6b

Many of these companies own multiple laser scanners, as does our company.

Really-
"You really should get further out of your hole so that you can see more than just your shadow."

That idiotic unvetted bombast reveals your lack of any insider knowledge. Your entire list was Googled. How many of those companies have you ever interacted with? The fact is you know less than zero about the survey business and operations out here on the Left Coast.

You may be able to fool yourself and a few of the inexperienced posters on this forum. But your list is a joke to me. You are the one who mentioned the CHP.

Now tell the class how you got out of the hole you just dug for yourself, traveled to California and interviewed all of those survey companies who told you how they are just coining money with their shiny, new laser scanners.

We are anxiously awaiting your  detailed report.
MLB

"...Your entire list was Googled. How many of those companies have you ever interacted with? The fact is you know less than zero about the survey business and operations out here on the Left Coast...."

3 of them not counting 2 that I didn't even list. Don't forget the projects we've personally completed in California Refineries and Steel Mills.

You might take a look at this list. That is if you can crawl away from your hole. You may notice even more California firms like Psomas,


http://www.sparconference.com/11/public/Content.aspx?ID=60360&sortMenu=104009

Binge, face the factrs. You got called on your myopic claim that "Police agencies own more scanners than surveyors here".  You should really keep to topics you know something about; like boxed wines.


You might also note that Ben Kacyra, who was instrumental in the invention and marketing of the first truly portable laser scanner called the Cyrax designed for surveying purposes during the 1990s, through his corporation Cyra Technologies Inc. After the company and the rights to the invention were purchased by Swiss firm Leica Geosystems built their time of flight scanners in CALIFORNIA.

Check your Wikipedia

Steel mills? Is that like steel milled oatmeal? I got called out?
Detailed report? Where is it? You are bluffing no one. Everything you posted came from a web site. You have done NOTHING! out here.

Face this fact. I know these companies and have written contracts with some of them.
And don't even go to the wine expert thing. You are totally out of your league there. You are a joke Falk. You don't have a clue about the market out here.
MLB

Believe whatever makes you happy. Hiccup!

Do not believe me because that does not make you happy.

Now you state that you "...know these companies and have written contracts with some of them..." and now want us to believe that you know these companies better than what they post on THEIR OWN WEB SITES.  You simply don't want to believe the California company web sites because they are citations I provided, so that does not make you happy.

Go back to your box-o-wine, because that makes you believe you are an expert laser scanning professional and therefore makes you happy.

You posted the CHIPs own more scanners than private companies. You were wrong.

You are absolutely correct on only one thing. I am not bluffing anyone;  simply because I am not bluffing.

Please Falk- "now you state....blah blah blah" The fact of the matter is you know squat about the survey business in California. Your lame two year old web site BS is laughable. All you can do is throw out your tired, worn out ad hominems , which BTW have no supporting evidence, just like the rest of your bluster.
MLB

As entertaining as it is to watch two grown men bicker back and forth on an internet forum, why not take this to your private email so you do not clutter posts that other forum contributors/readers find useful? It makes it diffucult to sift through your messages to get to the ones that actually provide legitimate information to the original poster.