Do You Know?

How many current property owners, in the United States, know where their property boundaries are?

In my 35 years experience, I would guess it to be around 30%. So that means that 70% of the property owners out there, haven't got a clue as to where the limits are, of the biggest purchase they will make.

Doesn't this seem odd to you? What are they thinking? They just don't care?

The bigger question; why are we allowing this to happen? In other parts of the world, you are given a certified title. Why aren't we doing that here?

Part of the reason, we've let it get to spread out. How many deed depositories are in your area? For the entire Province of British Columbia, there are 3. They are run, privately, by Surveyors, Abstractors and Title Lawyers.

The Government is looking for places to cut budgets, why not those jobs?

I have more, but I have to get going and I'd like to hear some comments too. I'll check back later.

Thanks,
Douglas Casement, PLS

Up her in Maine MacImage has been trying to consolidate all the registries information into 1 site, but the registries have been holding on tight to "their" information. 

There is some hope though:

http://www.preti.com/Preti-Prevails-in-MacImage-FOAA-Case

Part of the reason, we've let it get to spread out. How many deed depositories are in your area? For the entire Province of British Columbia, there are 3. They are run, privately, by Surveyors, Abstractors and Title Lawyers.

The Government is looking for places to cut budgets, why not those jobs?
 

It's been 16 years since I worked in B.C. but it was different from what you describe. The province is divided up into Land Districts - 6 if I recall correctly. British Columbia is a big place so each of these districts is at least as large, in terms of area, as a western US state. Each of these districts has a Registry and all surveys and deeds for the district are recorded in these Registries. These registries are very much government agencies..

Since the registry for your district may be a days drive from your office it is common for surveyors to use private research services located near the registry to do the research for them. Since every pertinent document is in this one registry, and any document that isn't in the registry isn't pertinent, it is a safe practice to engage in. 

As I said, my experience predates widespread use of the internet. I'm sure that by now the whole thing is probably on line.  

The system has it's charms, to be sure, but I doubt that the government would save any money by setting up such a system. If anything, it would increase the governments liability in the form of title guarantees and it would add an additional cost to real estate transactions, in the form of title guarantee premiums.   

Radar- I think 30% is rather generous. Outside of Land Surveyors, I would guess very few people truly know where their boundaries are. Worse yet, most of them aren't that interested unless someone is hassling them about it. Recently someone asked me what I did before I retired. When I told her she replied "Oh, I thought all that was done a hundred years ago," No estimate of ignorance should be ever considered excessive. You just can't fix stupid.
MLB

@ Mark
I thought you were paying attention Mike Binge asked me to go with him to BC in 2009. He interviewed Mike Thompson, the Surveyor General for BC, 2 different times, for an article he wrote.

http://www.ltsa.ca/

http://http://www.pobonline.com/Articles/Column/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000766589

While I can agree with you, I think the property owners in BC sleep a little better at night, knowing that LSTA has looked at the title to their property.



@MLB

"No estimate of ignorance should be ever considered excessive. You just can't fix stupid.

I'm not asking to fix stupid, I'm asking to help the Tax payer/Property owner. Ignorance is bliss until the neighbor sells to an A__hole.

And yes, I was being generous, all the more reason for action.

Get rid of the deed recorders office, cut them out of the budget. Create a private, non-profit state office that looks at every real estate transaction in the state. The Government is relieved of the liability and the property owner has a certified title. It's a Win Win.

Douglas Casement, PLS

So far I have purchased a 60 acre tract, a city lot, and a 20 acre tract.  They are nowhere near each other.  The only surveying I, or anyone else, have recently done on any of them was 1 side of the 60 acre tract for a boundary line agreement.

LTSA's website refers to itself as a "statutory corporation". I believe that this is an alternate phrase for "crown corporation" and a "crown coporation", in Canada, is a corporation wholly owned by the "Crown" - ie/ the government. The LTSA is a government agency in much the same sense that the US Post Office is a government agency. It is expected to pay its own way but if it doesn't the shortage still comes out of the taxpayer.

The single records repository goes hand in hand with the Torrens system, wherein documents become effective upon registration rather than upon execution.  Torrens title is a form of title insurance, which sometimes needs to be paid out. The registration system has no meaning without the title insurance. It also means a governement agency, er, Crown Corporation to inspect, approve, register, and assume responsibility for every transaction in land that occurs, including boundary surveys. This comes with a cost.  While a single repository for documents would be lovely, it would not save any money.

In Oregon we have County Surveyors and County Recorders. The records of the two are usually in the same building. Many of the County Surveyors have the map record available by internet. Various title companies around Portland will send me current vesting deeds for the asking.  That covers 99% of my needs.

My wife and I bought a house two years ago, and I took the liberty of finding my boundaries(what can I say, I like to show off when I can). Every fence line was off by about 2-3 tenths, with the error propagating to about 4 feet at the end of the block where it met a ditch. Technically speaking, my easterly boundary cuts into my neighbors driveway. I asked my boss if I should say something and I got a resounding NO. Apparently, notifying people about their poor boundaries is a lot like kicking an ant hill. Just throwing it out there, the experience of the surveyors in my area is to let the public be ignorant and happy.

I guess your opinion would be otherwise?

That's not your neighbor's driveway encroaching on you. It's your deed description encroaching on your neighbor's driveway. 

In other words, your neighbor has a driveway and a fence line. You have a piece of paper. You lose. Now, if you were in British Columbis it would be a different story. There, you win and the government, er, Crown Corporation buys your neighbor a new driveway and fence.

    Andrew, I'm sure you've seen us rail against "deed stakers" in this forum. 

You've just given an example of why--the deed doesn't always match reality.  It's not in anyone's interest to start a turf war, and too many times one starts with one neighbor informing another about an encroachment that has been peaceably in place for years and not an issue until Mr/Ms Surveyor comes along.  Maybe sometime down the road over a few beers the issue might surface in a safe, non-threatening and spontaneous manner whereby a lotline agreement can be tossed into the scene.  But, the general rule is don't kick the anthill unless you have to And you're really sure.

As for ignorance, guilty as charged.  Before I got into surveying, when I lived back East, I was of the same opinion--surveys had been done many years before and weren't really done anymore--at least in my neighborhood.  I had no clue at all.  I had a fenced yard and it was my understanding that whoever put up the fence did it just within their boundary line unless it was a commonly maintained fence between the neighbors.  That fence was only in back, but it marked the recognized boundary.  Since I did not get along at all with the one neighbor, there was a DMZ between us marked by a narrow line of unmown grass.

I'm better now.  I have found what pins there are, and all my neighbors know that I'm a gun-totin' surveyor who does not receive tresspassers well :-D

"... I would guess it to be around 30%. So that means that 70% of the property owners out there, haven't got a clue as to where the limits are, of the biggest purchase they will make."

"Doesn't this seem odd to you? What are they thinking? They just don't care?"

"The bigger question; why are we allowing this to happen?"

-------------------------------------------------------

I believe that this problem is worse than we all think.

16 months ago I surveyed over 1,800 real estate professionals; including but not limited to real estate agents & brokers, real estate attorneys, real estate title insurance agents & closers. The survey / questionnaire was e-mailed and the results were unanimously compiled by Survey Monkey. The final results were that %12 of all real estate transactions in my locale close with some type of survey.

Thus indicating that of the 2,500+/- real estate closing that occur monthly in the Denver Metro Area, nearly 2,200 new owners are unaware of the location of their property lines or that if encroachments are on onto or off of the property line/s or into easements.

As my last post indicated (a couple weeks ago) I'm seeing a trend of litigation because of this very issue. I have been in court 5 times the last 12 months as a paid expert witness. The unfortunate reality is, each situation could have alleviated had a survey been conducted prior to closing. As I write this, I'm again in the midst of yet another encroachment issue that has caused hostility between land owners in a relatively new suburban subdivision. A new survey would have disclosed that the fence line was off the property line (by many feet). The legal battle has many defendants being listed; a) Seller, b) Listing R/E agent, c) R/E agents' Managing Broker, c) R/E Buying Agent, d) Title Insurance Company and e) the neighbor - the amount of money, time, anxiety, and  frustration is countless.

Yes- We as a profession should be advising and educating the public as to why they should retain a professional land surveyor before they buy property.

Ron, CoPLS.com

I know that the original question was "...How many current property owners, in the United States, know where their property boundaries are?..."

The true dilema is how many current property owners, in the United States, THINK THAT THEY know where their property boundaries are?

Mountain Hermit said some things worth paying attention to.

Many young surveyors like yourself think of descriptions as defining property lines.  They do not.

A legal description (or map or any other form of graphical representation) is a model of the reality on the ground.  As such, no model is perfect.  They all have issues of one sort or another.  Ultimately what is truly important is not the mathematical precision of the model, it is the physical reality on the ground.

What you describe:

Every fence line was off by about 2-3 tenths, with the error propagating to about 4 feet at the end of the block where it met a ditch. Technically speaking, my easterly boundary cuts into my neighbors driveway.

might be what the mathematical model indicates but it does not necessarily mean the physical reality has to conform to the math.

Boundary surveying is not an exercise in math.  The legal aspects trump the pure math.

The late Dr. Ben Buckner said it this way.  A line very precisely measured and described but in the wrong location is far worse than a line imprecisely measured and described but located in the correct place.

Larry P