BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Sep 9, 2018 12:52 am

Can't get the letter to post?


 

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Sep 10, 2018 12:38 am

I will email the letter to anybody who can post it?

Keith

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Sep 12, 2018 10:40 pm


 

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by rickfb on Sep 13, 2018 9:50 am

Maybe you can find a high schooler who will post it for you.

wink

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Sep 14, 2018 12:50 pm

You are probably being sarcastic, but you also might be right!

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Richard Hardison_4 on Nov 11, 2018 6:44 pm

Keith, I can understand your frustration in dealing with cadastral. I was inspired by Eastern States Cadastral Chief to allow my CFedS to expire. While there are some good people in Cadastral, I have reached the conclusion that eastern States is a jackleg organization utterly unworthy of respect. It seems not to matter who the chief is, it remains Baumanized and no one is gong to to tell them how to survey, even if what they are doing is illegal, which is exactly what they did on the EBCI Boundary in Swain County, NC.

In several state in the west, Cadastral has done some sorry work in Indian Country. The Navajo would like to lay hands on Cadastral as they cheated the tribe out of several hundred acres through low quality work. I tried to get a movement going to get Congress to throw Cadastral out of Indian since they don't want to mess with it, and when they do, they do they tend to jack leg work.

I was approached about applying for a slot with Cadastral, but contacted a good friend that used to work in Cadastral and was strongly warned away.

Do you still live in Kalifornia? Just wondering as I saw a few posts in this thread where you gave DC as your AO these days.

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Nov 12, 2018 1:19 pm

Richard,

It is frustrating to attempt to get the Headquarters Office of Cadastral  Survey to review some of their field offices to find out if in fact some of their land surveyor procedures are not in conformance with the Manual.

Apparently, they have other issues that are more important?

The Boumanized theory is based on "Public Rights" and in so doing, the section subdivision lines have to be run at the record positions and ignore all "Private Rights"!

I have not read any legal document where "Public Rights" have been stated and to be followed?  Have you?

The bigger problem, as I see it, is that private surveyors may like this new theory as it is strictly mathematical and no judgement is needed as existing private survey monuments are simply rejected.  In fact, any other land owner evidence of the private boundary line.

And/or those private surveyors working in the BLM Eastern States jurisdiction may be forced to follow this new theory?

This theory when practiced on the ground in Arizona, a few years ago, resulted in the land owners accepted private survey monuments being rejected and the land owners ended up in trespass on Forest Service land.  The solution was a private relief bill in Congress that "fixed it"?  What I have heard since is that those land owners had to pay a lot of money to get clear title based on the new BLM resurvey?

I left California and now live in Oregon and love it.  Not sure what you meant by me giving DC as my AO?

I did in fact work in the Headquarters Office of Cadastral Survey from 1975 until I retired in 1992.

My main responsibility was that I  authored the final Survey Manual interpretation for BLM, which would then be signed by the BLM Director.

Take care Richard and good to hear from you

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Nov 12, 2018 7:00 pm

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Nov 12, 2018 7:20 pm

Thats the way you subdivide a section and ignore all existing evidence.
 

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Nov 13, 2018 11:02 pm

Hint:

If there were any private survey monuments accepted on the subdivision of the section corners.....might there be a broken bearing and distance to that corner and not a single bearing and distance for the entire length of each line that shows here?

Think about it ?

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Richard Hardison_4 on Nov 15, 2018 8:59 pm

Saying DC is your AO, is mil speak for dc is your area of operations. I automatically do that without thinking that the target may not understand that. Sorry about that.

I've had a major run-in with Eastern States that, in fact, got me fired this morning. I submitted a plat for a fee to trust application and the BILS in the Nashville District Office of BIA said I had a serious problem. He said the bearings were not to true merdian, and I had two busts, one of 400+ feet and the other of about 11 feet. I was able to duplicate one of his errors. He had been using as Google earth as a confirmation and when he dumped the boundary to google earth he said it was over rotated (the original was done to NC Grid then rotated to true). The conversion routines for both Autocad and Carlson software required the drawing be in one to the standard grid projections. I set up two versions of just the boundary polyline, made sure the grid attribute was set to NC Grid, then made the conversion and opened it Google earth. It fell exactly where it was supposed to. When I took the same polyline, rotated to true meridian, made sure the grid attribute was still set to NC Grid, I made the conversion, then opened it in Google Earth, it came in exactly as the BILS described - rotated twice the convergence angle at the point of rotation.

He said he wasn't relying on Google Earth, but was using CAP-D, which does things Geodetically, and works anywhere. Yet with every call He'd pop up Google Earth and what he saw. I saw nothing of what he saw. I saw it right where it was supposed to be. He also whined about my professional abilities and said "I have no confidence that this professional has the ability to complete the project." Funny thing to say when you can't even explain where something is wrong in a way someone can understand, and then you screw something as simple as a Google earth conversion. He's a terrible reviewer to boot. His predecessor was a good one to work with. this guy needs to be sent back the field.

He also seemed to dislike Surveyors other than BLM. I'd heard of several in the past that were like that, but this is the first I've actually had to deal with.

I finally reached a point of utter frustration because the BILS seemed unable to actually described the problem in such I could find it on my and and so asked if I could come over. He said sure. Th evening before I was to go over my trip was shot down. The head of Tribal Realty told me that the BILS just didn't have time as he had so much work to do and had several meetings and he would be able to give me only a few minutes. So, the trip was shot down.

The actual message of the phone call was somewhat different. The head of Realty for BIA Nashville district forbade any contact between the BILS and myself as I was outside the line of communications. As a result, I was not able to find the problems on my end and fix them. That killed the project, and I said so. Between fighting management, whose incompetence cost me 7 months at a minimum, and the BILS, there was no way the end would be successful.

Hard to complete work when what you need is taken from you. It's especially galling when they hold you at fault. The behavior of the Cadastral Chief for eastern States, and the unprofessional behavior of the BILS inspired me to drop my CFedS. Dennis Mouland did a wonderful job with the program, but too many in BLM

I have prospects here in the mountains, and I'm trying to stay here.

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Nov 16, 2018 12:52 am

Richard,

Sorry, but I don't understand a lot of your post and your survey methods?

I do understand your frustration too with BLM.

At some point, the headquarters Cadastral Survey may come to the conclusion that some of their Land Surveyors are not in compliance with the Survey Manual.

It would probably be more benefit for the private surveyors to read about any conclusions that BLM would make?

Until then, let Congress settle the problems with private relief bills!!

Keith
 

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Richard Hardison_4 on Nov 16, 2018 4:26 pm

NC is a colonial state and the mindset is different from the PLSS. One can say that PLSS is a special case of metes and bounds, and it does a lot to solve the problems caused by the willy nilly methods that came across the pond with the settlers.

I have to do my original work in NC State Plane Grid. Once complete, I then rotate the boundary by what is called the convergence angle to rotate to true north at the point of rotation. I then add the bearings and distances. Carlson Software will take the boundary polyline (a series of line segments that Autocad or Intellicad treats as one entity) and write the legal description in skeletal form. You then have to go back and add the verbiage required for a metes and bounds description (the field notes in BLM parlance). The the plat is fleshed out, checked to be sure the legal description says what the plat says (Carlson sometimes reverses bearings. Haven't found the quirk so i can work around it consistently). The BILS found a couple things where a bearing was reversed, and I have no problem with that when someone catches that and I didn't. I want the plat right, just as any competent surveyor would.

Anyway, I was looking to leave as I was in an unprofessional cesspool. Both of the managers in Realty are incompetent, and refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions. One is the GIS manager, who has had 13 years to produce a working GIS, yet has not. And, they are letting him run a GIS/Land Surveying program. It would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic.

I have your email addy from when you were in Kalifornia. Did you keep the same emaill?

I lived in Oregon for almost 6 years when my father was stationed at Adair Air Force Station a bit north of Corvallis. We lived in Albany, and loved it. Love the coast and the mountains. Went sledding at Tombstone Meadow (on US 20 a bit east of Seet Home) in the middle of July on an old over door we found. We had a blast. I've heard that Albany has gone the way of the Portlandia-Eugene corridor on the political insanity scale, alas.My father thought about getting out of the Air Force there but couldn't find a decent job, so off to Germany when he got orders. The kali exodus was just beginning then, and everyone hated them.

Looks like we are losing RPLS. I hate that as there have been some good discussions here, but I do note there is no where near the traffic there used to be and POB is getting tired of maintaining something with low traffic. Alas, one less reason to come to the POB website.

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Richard Hardison_4 on Nov 16, 2018 4:37 pm

Forgot to add that the NC Board is seriously looking at requiring everyone have GPS and then all work will have to be tied to grid and done in grid. Much work falls through the cracks because there is not any coordinated control within 2000 feet. That is something I've pushed for quite some time. I think we'll see it move to PLSS states as well. The problem will come when people are proportioning corners and treating the bearings on a GLO/BLM plat as though they are grid bearings. Jerry Wahl used to have a paper online about that. I experimented with rotating the bearings on the plat to grid and I got the same answer as I did when the work was done with the plat bearings. I would very hesitant about doing that in general without a lot more trials to see how things work out.

Re: BLM's alternate method of subdividing PLSS sections.

Posted by Keith on Dec 1, 2018 6:42 pm

I guess this is the end of this discussion?

Keith