Civil 3d 2010

Ok, this is bugging the  crap out of me.  How do I get the stupid task pane to quit loading on startup. I know in Autoca Map you used to go to the Map - Options and you could stop it there, but in Civil 3d 2010 I cannot find where I do this. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Oh and by the way. Autocad Civil 3D 2010 sucks for surveyors. I miss my Carlson..

C3D has a pretty nasty learning curve, but it's pretty powerful.  It's got drawbacks compared to Carlson, but it's also got advantages.  We're using it extremely productively at Edward-James Surveying.

Anyway, to get to a lot of the Map commands, you either have to change to a Map workspace (look for the gear-shaped icon in the status bar at the bottom of the screen), or type the command at the command line.  For a lot of the Map commands, I find it easier to simply type the command at the command line.  In this case, the command is MAPOPTIONS - that will call up the familiar dialog box, where you can turn off the Task Pane at startup.

Limited exposure to C3D, but I agree with Kirk.  POS for surveying.  Richard is also correct about the absolutely vicious learning curve.   If you are not into engineering design, put it up Autodesks' pooper chute(where it is properly placed) and get Carlson.

SJ

I have been wrestling with Civil 3D 2010 for nearly a year now and find the survey portion worst than useless. Fortunately, I have my old computer running LDD on my desk so I can get work done.

I understand the theory of having control points handled different from survey points but the implementation is awful. Importation of old projects does not differentiate between point types thus no control points exist so a fieldbook file will not import until control points are edited as control points. As much as they deny it, it is possible to have points with different coordinates utilize the same point number.

The software has far too many settings requiring setup yet there is no way to set something as simple as using US survey foot as the default. Hunting through folders and directories to find the database folder for the current project then for the fieldbook files is time consuming. Autodesk had it correct in LDD where the project files where located in one place and default setting only needed to be made once. You can say the “improved functionally” many times over but it does not make it a reality.

 Thanks for the opportunity to vent!

Not really sure what issues you're having, but there is definitely a way to set US Survey Foot as the default.  You set the default for your drawings in the drawing template, and the defaults for your Survey Database in the Survey Database Defaults.

The learning curve is vicious, but C3D is incredibly powerful.  We regularly do things in half an hour that took one or two days in Land Desktop, even though we also used additional time-saving customizations in LDD.  We wouldn't even dream of trying to use LDD these days - it's too pathetic.  We found that we basically needed one experienced LDD tech per field crew.  By contrast, one experienced C3D tech can support 4 or 5 field crews.  The difference isn't even close.

"POS for surveying"

I have been using C3D from version 2007, up to 2011 now and I am always curious to know what people are expecting it to do for "Surveying purposes" This term is so broad that one can't really offer any assistance as to a workaround or a particular work flow issue, but everyone seems to throw it around to trash the whole program in general.

What do you want to use C3D for and where is your problem point?

I use C3D for everything these days but I don't have much choice. LDD was removed from the network a while back so I figured why hold onto it. Granted our Surveying department doesn't use all of the programs bells and whistles, but I'm not sure any one person could retain the daily knowledge to utilize every feature of the program.

I use it to draw autolinework and associate that basic line work to a desired layer. Feature lines are great since they maintain a 3 dimensional property but plot as 2d. I draw as much as possible in a real-world 3 dimensional space and Civil 3D seems to be one of the best programs for this.
I use it to Associate field points to a particular layer with or without a symbol.
I use it for Surfacing, and let me tell you, I haven't worked with any better program for surfacing.
I use it for Creating a final Map product or surveyors report, weather it be a Subdivision Plat, record of survey, topo, Volume calculation, construction stakeout ect, ect, ect.

I DON'T use it to adjust anything, for this I use StarNet before I ever import the points.
I DON'T use the survey Network simply because in the earlier versions of the program 07-09 it severely slowed down the functionality and speed.

The survey network, or toolspace, although modified is nearly the same and it was in softdesk. Autodesk has just carried it along and made modifications here and there. If you have a smaller drawing there should be no reason to not use the network but I just go through an extra step to remove its connection from my working drawing.

I love the fact that there is no project folder, and everything is contained within a single drawing file.
I love the MAP functionality to instantly associate existing GIS data to a current project.
I love the data referencing features that help maintain a smaller drawing file size and allow everyone in the office to utilize ONE boundary file, ONE surface file, ONE subdivision plat file, ONE utility file, the list could go on. I can't stand to see copies of a file, and version, this, and version that.
I love the fact that a transition of my file to a civil team using the program is nearly seemless.

Is it the best program for mom and pop boundaries? No but that is a cost effective issue not functional issue.
Is it the best program for a survey only shop? Probably not for the same cost effective issue.
Is it the best program for a multidisciplinary company? I don't know but it seems like it IMHO.

My advise, if your struggling with it is find training, don't go at it alone, pay someone to set up your styles or borrow them from a firm that already has this done if you can. Learn the program basic changes. ITS STILL AUTOCAD, just with a lot of lipstick on it. I've smeared away some of this in my CUI files so it looks more like my old LDD.

The fact that I have come to understand is that no matter what I do, AUTODESK will keep rolling on. They have marketers that can sell Ice cubes to Eskimo's and a major unnecessary, expensive program to municipality's that then turn around and demand the latest and greatest autodesk product. This is a steamroller that I'm not going to jump in-front of. I'd rather be in the drivers seat.

Good luck.

"Is it the best program for a survey only shop? Probably not for the same cost effective issue."


I wouldn't agree with that.  We're a survey-only shop, and we find C3D to be extremely powerful.  We're running circles around what we used to do with LDD.

The bigger question revolves around how you intend to use it.  If you're one of those who wants to continue working in the same way you have for years, saying "My current software does everything I need", then you are probably better off looking at Microsurvey or Carlson, or even one of the other offerings.  However, we've been embracing a lot of the new functionality in C3D, and use the vast majority of its functionality, considering very little of C3D's power to be "unnecessary".  We are now regularly doing things that we didn't even dream of just a few years ago, and we're doing it very easily and extremely quickly, with a very high degree of quality control.  We've even gotten clients who have realized they can't get the same results from other local surveyors, and we've been staying busy, even while other firms around are going out of business, despite the fact that they constantly throw out lowballed bids that are cheaper than us.

Jered McGrath PLS

:... pay someone to set up your styles or borrow them from a firm that already has this done if you can.

 

Therein is a big problem with the implementation of Civil 3d. I can pay someone to setup styles for my company. The local vendor wants a couple grand to do it. Or I can wait for you to pay them to do it, and when one of your drawings falls into my hands I'll have that style setup - no charge. Trouble is, you know that, too, so you wait for me to pay for the style setup - and to have it fall into your hands free of charge. So neither of us do it, and neither does anyone else.

Autodesk should supply a series of basic style setups, just as Microsoft freely supplies a variety of templates online.

Anybody wants to prove me wrong and send me a Civil3d template drawing all set up for effective surveying - my email is in my profile.     

“Functionality”, ah yes, the current Autodesk buzzword. The problems I see in the survey portion of Civil 3 begin with:
 

1. I do not believe a project have two coordinate points that share the same point number that is like asking for trouble. Especially if 2 field crews are working on a project and office techs are creating points at the same time.
2. Why in the world do I have drill down through the entire hard drive to open the survey database, open it, and then drill down again to find the field book files. I open 4 to 6 projects a day and have to root around the directories every time. Where is the functionally in that process?
3. We keep the field book files named by date, storing them in a directory with the rest of the project files. Forget to root around to find the correct project directory and you may import a field book from the wrong project.  Where is the functionally?
4. Why do you have to “Update” after making additions or edits? Is there some functionality in not updating?
5. Why on earth is the default the “International Foot” rather then “US Survey Foot” and why do I have to jump through that hoop for every project?

Please address criticisms rather then deride those who point out problems that cause frustration. You are using the same line that the instructor was espousing for a week.  “I can do it better and faster by using Civil 3D” is just company line when it actually takes 4 times longer to do a siple task than the earlier version.
Thank you
 

Mark Mayer:


Anybody wants to prove me wrong and send me a Civil3d template drawing all set up for effective surveying - my email is in my profile.     

I'll do you one better, and post ours for C3D 2010:

http://www.ejsurveying.com/downloads/_ej_survey.dwt

However, having this template may not be as big a benefit as you may think.  There are a lot of caveats with this template, some of which I'll detail below.

On the other hand, this whole issue is something of a red herring.  The Styles are what enable a lot of the speed and power of C3D, and are why we can now do so many things with such extreme speed, yet still maintain a high degree of quality.

On one level, the Styles encapsulate a lot of what used to be manual drafting tasks.  They take time to setup, but once they are setup, you just use them.  That's when you start seeing all the time savings.  But that means your template is a rather personal thing, that can really get tailored to exactly how YOUR company does business.  That's one reason why it's so difficult to create a "one size fits all" template, or even a handful of templates that will "fit all".  Even if you start with another company's template, you'll want to tailor it to look like you want, and you'll want to tailor it to fit in with your common tasks and processes.  And even more, as time goes by and the core program changes, or your workload changes, you'll have still more changes to your template.  Your template is never "finished".  It's always in flux.  The key is to keep constant maintenance on it.  When you create a new Style, make sure it gets into your template, so it is available from that point on.  Otherwise, you'll never gain the speed benefits C3D affords you.

What I'm trying to say is that the Styles are a definite pain at first, and a good part of the initial adoption curve for any company moving to C3D.  If you make sure to keep working on your template, though, you'll get faster and faster in your production work.  At some point, you'll suddenly realize that you're working MUCH faster than you ever dreamed possible in Land Desktop.

Now for the caveats I mentioned...  I'm actually just starting work on a significant revamp of our template for 2011, which will change a bunch of things.  But posted is a C3D 2010 template that we've managed to do an awful lot of work with.  The caveats:

For one, all drawings started with that template have the "twisted viewcube" problem in C3D 2011, and I still have seen no solution to it.  (Not a problem if you just turn off the view cube and ignore it, but annoying if you actually like the view cube.)

Second, we've decided to move toward layer names that are closer to the NCS naming standards.  These layer names are a lot like NCS, except "shortened" so we had a greater chance of identifying layer names via the XLIST command.  For example, we used "VP-" instead of "V-PAVE-", "VA-" instead of "V-ANNO-", etc.  Now that we have the EntityTracker in the Sincpac-C3D, however, we no longer have the XLIST problem, and have decided to move toward the longer and more-easily-understood NCS layer names.

Third, we're probably going to change our Point Styles to use Layer 0 for the Marker Layer, and modify our Description Keys to put the points on the actual layer (basically inverting the way it is setup right now).  This creates a problems with Named Plot Styles, and the wrong Plot Styles being assigned to Cogo Point leaders when they are in the dragged state, but we'll work around that issue.  In return, we'll have drawings that, when exported to plain Autocad format, have point blocks on the correct layer, making it easier for the person receiving the drawings.  With our current setup, when we export to Autocad format, we get point blocks on Layer 0, with the data inside the block on the point layer.

And of course, there are sundry other issues.  I think there's a couple of Styles in there that have gotten corrupted at some point.  Various other potential issues.  And we use Named Plot Styles...  A lot of things in it might need to be tweaked (especially colors) if you like using CTB files.

Martin Miccio:

“Functionality”, ah yes, the current Autodesk buzzword. The problems I see in the survey portion of Civil 3 begin with:
 

1. I do not believe a project have two coordinate points that share the same point number that is like asking for trouble. Especially if 2 field crews are working on a project and office techs are creating points at the same time.
2. Why in the world do I have drill down through the entire hard drive to open the survey database, open it, and then drill down again to find the field book files. I open 4 to 6 projects a day and have to root around the directories every time. Where is the functionally in that process?
3. We keep the field book files named by date, storing them in a directory with the rest of the project files. Forget to root around to find the correct project directory and you may import a field book from the wrong project.  Where is the functionally?
4. Why do you have to “Update” after making additions or edits? Is there some functionality in not updating?
5. Why on earth is the default the “International Foot” rather then “US Survey Foot” and why do I have to jump through that hoop for every

 

1.  We deal with this by having field crews use point numbers from 10,000 and up.  Points 1-300 are reserved for control points.  Office staff are free to create points in the 300-9999 range.  So far, that setup has worked well.  The field crews are responsible for logging which numbers they have used in a log in the field folder, so that later crews know which numbers were used by earlier crews.

2.  C3D 2011 is supposed to include a feature that automatically changes the Working Folders for each drawing.  We're still using C3D 2010, though, so I haven't had a chance to test it out and see how it works.  If that's the case, then the correct Survey Database(s) should just appear on the Survey tab when you open a drawing.

3.  Yeah, Autodesk really needs more "Project" type of functionality.  I've been complaining about this for years now...  Some have even started calling it my "Project rant"...  Don't know what to say, as I completely agree with you.

4.  Not sure exactly what you mean here...

5.  You can change the default to US Survey Foot if you want.  Just change it in your DWT file, and change it in your Survey User Settings so new Survey Databases will also be set to US Survey Foot.  You can also set default Coordinate Zones in each place.  Where it gets really annoying is if you need to work in multiple units or coordinate zones.  For example, we regularly work in both Colorado State Plane Central and Colorado State Plane South.  If I set our DWT and Survey Database to Central, then we might have drawings in the South zone that are set wrong accidentally, and vice-versa.  So instead, I have both DWT and Survey Database default to "No datum, no projection", so there is no zone set unless we explicitly set it.  This helps prevent incorrect settings and confusion.  This goes back to my "Project rant", where C3D really needs to let us specify units and zone when we create a new Project.  Then, every new drawing or Survey Database created in that Project automatically should use the correct settings for the Project.

Richard:

Thank you for your response and agreeing that the folder/file handling is poor. I figure I just have not drunk enough of what we call the Autodesk kool-aid.
 
My meaning in vent #4 was that you if you make any changes then look at the point groups you will invariably a see a yellow symbol that looks like home plate with an exclamation point. Our instructor would say “See that group screaming out to be updated” but why would you not update it?
 
 Thank you for the help with #5 but I must not be following your instructions correctly:
 

1. In the DWT file I set the “Drawing Utilities”, “Drawing Settings” transformation to our zone and save the DWT
2. I open a new project and check the transformation in the “Drawing Utilities”, “Drawing Settings” and it is set to the zone in the DWT file
3. I create a “New Local Survey Database”
4. I cannot find where to check the setting so I try “Edit survey database settings” and it shows the setting to be “No Coordinate Zone and “International Foot”.

 
 
Another comment, why do we have to create a network to simply import a coordinate list?
 
I cannot find one single item in the survey portion of this software that is better than what was done under LDD. In fact nearly everything takes much longer and more prone to error. Please tell me, in the survey portion of the software, what warrants saying “We're running circles around what we used to do with LDD”. To date I can find no redeeming value.
 
Thanks
 

Richard Sincovec:


I'll do you one better, and post ours for C3D 2010:

http://www.ejsurveying.com/downloads/_ej_survey.dwt
 

Thanks, Richard.  I have partaken of your offer. Very interesting.

FWIW, we have been using a layering standard that is very close to the NCS for several years.  The layer names are a bit long, but that has been no real problem. 

I don't think I've had any "Autodesk Kool-Aid"...  There are a lot of problems with C3D, and I am quite willing to express my frustrations.  In fact, I've gotten a lot of flak over the years from some for being "negative", when from my perspective, all I'm doing is being "realistic"...  But the problems have to be taken in context with the gains.

We literally do run circles around what we used to do in LDD.  When I say we went from 1:1 office tech to field crew ration with LDD to a 1:4 office tech to field crew ratio with C3D, I am not exaggerating.  And that's an average - I myself can actually support five field crews relatively easily (assuming I work 5 days a week, and the field crews each work 6 days a week, getting in Saturday overtime), but our other two techs aren't yet as skilled, so they're lower.  Yet we're still running pretty close to averaging 4 field crews per office tech.  And that's not even considering that, since we were on LDD, the field crews have also jumped up to new Trimble S6's, and THEY are going faster, too.  Yet we can easily handle more field crews with less office staff, AND we're consistently producing higher-quality results.  However, our workflow is different in so many ways that it would be difficult to detail all the differences in a forum post.  It may not be a satifying answer, but suffice it to say that we couldn't even dream of using LDD at this point, after seeing what we can do with C3D.

To get back to your direct questions...

Yeah, the Point Group Update thing is obnoxious.  But we use the Sincpac-C3D add-on, which adds an Automatic Point Group Update feature to C3D.  The SIncpac-C3D also adds tons of other features, many of which are tailored explicitly for Surveyors, and is a good reason why we can do so much.  We couldn't do what we do as quickly with C3D as it comes out-of-the-box.  (And in case you noticed the similarity in names, yes, I am the creator of the Sincpac-C3D.)

For your other question:

To change your Survey Database defaults, first setup a Survey Database the way you want it.  Then in the dialog box for editing your Surface Database Settings, click on the little icon in the upper-left that says "Click here to export these settings to a file" when you hover over it.  This will create an .SDB_SET file.  Now, in Prospector -> Survey tab, click on the little icon in the upper-left that says "Click here to edit Survey User Settings".  You'll get a dialog box where you can select the .SDB_SET file you created earlier (you may also need to change the "Survey database seettings path" to point to the directory that contains your .SDB_SET file).  All new Survey Databases will now be created with your default settings from the .SDB_SET file.

I admit that this procedure isn't exactly user friendly, as these icons have no titles, and you have no idea what they do until you hover over them with the cursor.  It's really easy to overlook them.  But this is all setup stuff, and once you do it, everything is set, and you don't need to worry about it again (at least until you upgrade to the next version, or do other radical changes to your company network or server setup).

Again thanks for the tips on setting up the defaults. Here is an idea for you or Autodesk. After the program is installed you go through a comprehensive series of questions like what zones, what type of instruments, where the project data is to be stored, styles you like etc. that sets up the package out of the box. Just for giggles I wonder how many settings are possible in this software and how many must be set before it actually works.
 
The icon system is nothing short of a pain in the ass just as it is in the new version of Microsoft Office.
 
I still cannot fathom how Civil 3D makes the techs more productive unless you now are creating line work in the field rather than in the office. I will check out your Sincpac-C3D; anything that will help the “functionally” of this product can’t hurt.

Martin Miccio:
Again thanks for the tips on setting up the defaults. Here is an idea for you or Autodesk. After the program is installed you go through a comprehensive series of questions like what zones, what type of instruments, where the project data is to be stored, styles you like etc. that sets up the package out of the box. Just for giggles I wonder how many settings are possible in this software and how many must be set before it actually works.
 
The icon system is nothing short of a pain in the ass just as it is in the new version of Microsoft Office.
 
I still cannot fathom how Civil 3D makes the techs more productive unless you now are creating line work in the field rather than in the office. I will check out your Sincpac-C3D; anything that will help the “functionally” of this product can’t hurt.

The software works out of the box, but getting it to work as you want it to is wonderfully a never ending dialog, I'm always finding new ways to create my own "note objects" with equations that I enter for things like railroad curves or a note that will label the invert on a pipe by placing that "note object" and clicking on the cogo point. Having worked with Civil 3D since the 2007 version, I'm very happy with the many improvements and love that there is now a 64 bit version.

I can't imagine not creating the line work in the field, I've been doing that since I started working with a  plane table many years ago.and have continued with data collectors. Line work is much easier if you are at the site looking at what you are drawing.

We are also a survey only shop. Yes the learning curve is vicious for C3D but once you do learn it the ROI is incredible. Example: spent the last 32 months learning and using Bentley PowerCivil. After spending thousands of dollars on the software and yearly up grades, untold hours on training whether on line classes or just plane studying the manuals, I just spent 3 and half days creating a small topo of 2 sites totaling about 2 acres. With a deadline looming finally gave up on PowerCivil and in 25 minutes with C3D accomplished more then in 3 and half days in PC. When I posted this fact on Bentley's web site it was promptly deleted. As rough as the learning curve is in C3D it can be a **lot** worse with other software for a lot less ROI. 

The major difference between C3D and LDT is that C3D is object-based. For instance, when you create a parcel in C3D, it is not a collection of lines, such as was in LDT or plain AutoCAD, but an object. Click on any portion of the parcel (name, boundary, etc.) and look at the properties dialog box. This is the real power of C3D. Any of these properties (and lots more that do not show up in the dialog box) are accessible without any additional work. You can use the Data Extraction Wizard to bring this information into a table in the drawing or to export to another program (e.g., Excel). You can use properties in Mtext fields. You can use the Report Wizard to build legal descriptions or closure reports. All this and more without doing any drafting.

Once you grasp the object concept, you understand why styles are so important. Cvil 3D is an Autodesk vertical product. In most of their vertical products, Autodesk has gone to objects. For instance, in AutoCAD Architecture or Revit, walls are not just parallel lines, but wall objects wih attendant properties, such type (e.g., wood studwall or CMU or concrete, etc.), height, width, etc. All of these properties are set with styles, just as in C3D. Hint: do not put styles in a drawing that you do not need - it unnecessarily increases the file size. Instead, have a base drawing with all your styles and include the most used in your template. If you need a style that is not in your template, you can easily import it from the base drawing.

I read some of the posts to this forum and I see some who need to learn the power of basic CAD concepts, such as templates. One poster apparantly is not aware that, if he uses the NEW instead of the QNEW command, he can select the template. This would allow him to create a template for Colorado South and another for Colorado Central.

However, one of the problems with object-based CADD is that it can easily be misued. For instance, a topographic map in C3D is a representation of a surface. By simply changing the style of a surface, you can instantly go from 10 ft. contour intervals to 2 ft. intervals. I have had clients ask me to do this for aerial topography. Then I have to explain National Map Standards (plus or minus half a contour interval of the original map) and how photogramtry works (flight heights, control points, etc.). Some things are too easy in C3D.

oceng:

I read some of the posts to this forum and I see some who need to learn the power of basic CAD concepts, such as templates. One poster apparantly is not aware that, if he uses the NEW instead of the QNEW command, he can select the template. This would allow him to create a template for Colorado South and another for Colorado Central.
 

This poster is obviously not aware of what other posters are saying.  Other posters are aware of how templates work.  But maintaining multiple templates is annoying.  Not to mention, the Survey Database settings should match the drawing settings, and there is no way to easily select a Survey Database template to match the drawing template.

We have a system that works.  That doesn't change the fact that some things in Civil 3D are annoying.

Thank you Richard for the .dwt.  It has helped me out a lot for someone that is just getting started with C3D. I love LDD and am stuggling with Civil but in time I think I will love the program as much as LDD. Your .dwt was a huge step up with headaches of setting each variable. I am still customizing your styles to more of mine but some of your settings I would have never thought of setting the way you had. Can I get your ej.shp file? Civil requests this file everytime I start and I just cancel the command. 

phillip@innovativesurveying.com

Ah, that's just the TREELINE linetype.

Find that layer, change it to some other linetype, then use the PURGE command to remove the TREELINE linetype definition and the EJSI.shx shapefile definition, and you won't get that anymore.

I've actually made some significant improvements to that template, although now it's in 2011 format.  There's a couple of things I'd like to do to it first, but then I'll post that as well, along with our figure library to go along with it.  That will probably help new C3D adopters a fair bit.  And if everyone should happen to copy my template and adopt my methodology and it becomes standard, that's a win for me, because I'll automatically feel at home in any drawing I receive....  

C3D can be very frustrating, I know.  I still constantly shout at Autodesk about my frustrations (and have been doing so in person so here at AU2011, you can be sure).  But this stuff keeps getting better.  And I'm always doing whatever I can to push those Autodesk guys to get it better, faster.  And it IS happening, albeit with many stumbles along the way... 

I think a telling stat is still the long-term performance we end up with, in the sense of how many employees we need over the long haul.  Shoot-outs are too-easily stacked, conciously or not.  But I think the long-term staffing requirements are a very signficant telling point.

We used to use a heavily-customized Land Desktop setup.  And as such, we needed one office tech per field crew.  Since then, our field crews have gotten faster, with their moves into faster robots + GPS + scanning, so each field crew can do more work, faster.  Despite that, I can now support five field crews, on a sustained basis.  So my productivity has gone up by 5x, even compared to the evoloving field technology.  When you start doing the math, and one employee can now do the work that 5 employees used to do with Land Desktop, all the economics change.  The cost of a seat of software pales in comparison to the cost of an employee+benefits for a year.

C3D does come at a cost, though.  The learning curve is atrocious.  But once you cross that hump, it gets hard to even conceive of Land Desktop as being "good software" for any purpose.

buy Carlson... Civil3D is junk

Pin Cushion:
buy Carlson... Civil3D is junk

Funny...  I've heard something from a client that's similar, but they use us as much as possible over their in-house Surveyors because we use Civil 3D while their in-house Surveyors use "that Carlson crap..."  (their words, not mine).

Personally, I think both of you are wrong, and either software can be used very effectively, or either software can be used to create crap.  I find comments like this to be more a reflection on how the software is being used, rather than on the software itself.

And I actually LIKE the fact that one is not clearly better than the other for everyone.  As it is, both sets of software have strong points and weak points, and the existence of both puts pressure on both developers to innovate and improve.  If we had only one "good" package, our software would not improve anywhere near as quickly.

Of course, I'm of the mind that we, as an industry, CANNOT keep doing things the way we were doing them twenty years ago, or even ten years ago.  The technology is changing too fast.  And I've been seeing more and more "old-school" people retiring, switching professions, etc., as they start getting less and less work, because they can't compete with those who stay up on technology and can do work 5x faster, and to a higher degree of quality.

Richard,

that is funny... my clients didn't even know i switched from LandDeskTop to Carlson Intellicad in the end cad = cad. If your clients are Civil designers talking about "that Carlson Crap" then they and you have no idea what Carlson REALLY is.... ignorance is not looking into it.

Carlson is the best land surveying field+office combo on the market.... their stuff is unreal, the only looser is you. I own it. Old dog, meet  New Trick.

You haven't really read anything I've said in this thread, have you?

That's alright...   I don't mind.