"direct supervision " of survey crews

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"direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Pin Cushion on Sep 27, 2010 3:03 pm

In your professional opinion...

How many survey crews can one Professional Surveyor oversee/direct while maintaining integrity to his and their work? ...Meaning not just signing and checking the plats but actual supervision and being an active part of each survey.

I am not asking for State Statues, if your state has a restriction on the matter, I am asking for your opinion as a Professional.

adamsurveyor

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by adamsurveyor on Sep 27, 2010 3:25 pm

I think a licensed surveyor, by his license, take responsibility for the work. S/He may have confidence in one crew over another, and may have to micromanage one crew, or may give much greater responsibility to another. He or she has to defend his decisions if there is a controversy. He may have a great deal of confidence in a particular employee that they will come to him for those more professional decisions. How about a person to properly file his records so he can refind them?

I don't think your putting a number on it is final. If the profession dictated exactly how many hours or what percentage of time the professional had to oversee the work it probably wouldn't be a profession.

Can the professional surveyor rely on an employee to do adequate title research? Can the professional surveyor rely on a crew that has proven they can find monuments even better than he can? Can the professional surveyor rely on an expert draftsman to do his drafting, or a scrivner to write a description?

I think the professional surveyor has to review all of these things, and whether or not he can have an employee take off and do a complete and adequate particular job might rely on his confidence level and experience with that person. If he lets crap get by him, he may find hmiself in hot water one day in court or explaining himself to another surveyor.

Pin Cushion

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Pin Cushion on Sep 27, 2010 3:28 pm

so how many is that Adam? 1, 3, 8? ....a number people

Sicilian Cowboy

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Sicilian Cowboy on Sep 27, 2010 3:43 pm

ooops.....clicked too fast.

Sicilian Cowboy

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Like A Lot of What We Discuss......

Posted by Sicilian Cowboy on Sep 27, 2010 3:49 pm

.......it depends.

The number of projects being performed might be just as relevant as the number of crews.

The person in responsible charge may have three or four crews on a single project and have a tight rein on everything, yet put those same crews on three or four different projects, with differing complexity, in different towns or counties.......who knows?

This is probably one reason you don't often see it spelled out in State Regs.

Pin Cushion

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Pin Cushion on Sep 27, 2010 4:20 pm

I totally disagree... Not ONE (1) Professional can directly oversee with any integrity say 10 or more crews, I don't care what they are doing.

FIVE (5) is a stretch ;)

Paul in PA

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Re: "direct supervision " of 2 to 4 survey crews

Posted by Paul in PA on Sep 27, 2010 4:40 pm

Some time ago on the old POB Board I proposed a maximium that a PLS could resonably supervise.

I feel the term crews should be used as 8 men with robots will need a lot more supervision than 4 two man crews.

As I recall I broke it down to a maximum of 2 survey crews. To add another crew it must be run by a Certified Crew Chief or LSIT. In fact one might even allow the LSIT to have some surpervision over an additional crew. However one cannot be in a supervisory position if one is also working a full day in the field elsewhere.

One of the side benefits if such a limit were required is that it is in the PLS's interest to advance the qualifications of his employees.

Paul in PA

Paul in PA

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Re: "Angelo, The Discussion Is ''Survey Crews''

Posted by Paul in PA on Sep 27, 2010 4:44 pm

I have seen darn few projects with 3 survey crews for any length of time.

Stakeout is not necessarily surveying, though sometimes it requires even greater supervision.

Paul in PA

Stephen Johnson

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Stephen Johnson on Sep 28, 2010 7:57 am

Depending on the quality and reliability of the party chiefs and how well they supervise their party.

My personal opinion is not more than 4 unless you have very High Quality people. Then 5 maybe.

SJ

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do those things to other people and I require the same of them."

ron berry

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by ron berry on Sep 28, 2010 10:00 am

3 gets my vote...........

Travis Point

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Travis Point on Sep 28, 2010 10:53 am

I feel it depends on the personnel involved and the type of work the crews are doing.

I think I could handle between 2 and 4 crews working, as long as I had qualified crews and qualified techs in the office. Anything more would require an additional PLS on staff.

TP

Sicilian Cowboy

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"I have seen darn few projects with 3 survey crews for any length of time."

Posted by Sicilian Cowboy on Sep 28, 2010 3:27 pm

I have seen it many times, and we are doing it it now, in two places.

At one high profile project here in NY, we have two crews full time and one crew on and off the site. We expect this to be the case until 2012.

At another site, we have two crews on site together about 75% of the time.

Nowhere did I say that ten crews could be supervised by one LS.

adamsurveyor

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by adamsurveyor on Sep 28, 2010 4:57 pm

re: "so how many is that Adam? 1, 3, 8? ....a number people"

It depends.
Apparently you didn't read my post.

it takes what it takes. It depends on the professional, it depends on the job, and it depends on the crew.

I know some professionals who can't manage themselves. If you are good for supervising one crew and no more, then by all means supervise only one crew. Sorry, you aren't getting a universal "number" from me deciding how many crews a licensed surveyor should supervise; nor are you going to dictate to me a maximum number I may supervise.

Pin Cushion

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Pin Cushion on Sep 28, 2010 5:53 pm

no I didn't read it... I did read "it depends"

....but it doesn't depend. You cannot manage 50 crews I don't care if half of them are just sitting on there asses

It is really a simple question that requires and answer in number form, that should be less than two digits.

Why do you people attempt to complicate $hit?

Sicilian Cowboy

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"Why do you people attempt to complicate..............

Posted by Sicilian Cowboy on Sep 29, 2010 9:35 am

..............$hit?"

Maybe some folks like to annoy "you people"...........

What a shame things can't always be black and white so it's easy for you.

MountainHermit

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by MountainHermit on Sep 29, 2010 12:45 pm

For large mapping/geodetic projects (really large--think "countries") I've run as many as 8 crews at once with complete confidence in their work. That said, those crews had excellent crew chiefs and very specific instructions along with lots of contact with me both via phone and site visits.

Land surveys, especially stuff like Alta's, maybe two tops. I prefer to be a part of the crew or very close to them for that kind of work.

Mark Mayer

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Mark Mayer on Sep 29, 2010 1:24 pm

Your demand that we simplify a matter of professional judgement down to a cookbook number is shallow thinking. It does depend on circumstances.

Don Poole

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews> Pin Cushion

Posted by Don Poole on Sep 29, 2010 1:29 pm

> up to and including eleventy-seven

Don Poole PLS
Outermost Land Survey, Inc.

"Outstanding in the field"

adamsurveyor

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by adamsurveyor on Sep 29, 2010 2:12 pm

"

Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Pin Cushion on Sep 28, 2010 5:53 pm

no I didn't read it... I did read "it depends"

re: "No, I didn't read it".......maybe that is your problem.

Maybe you should get your license, oversee some work, and then come up with your precise number. I am glad to see you have narrowed it down. Most of "us people" that know the secret handshake, also know the magic number. I hope you succeed in your quest.

Good luck with that reading thing.

Rich Leu

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by Rich Leu on Sep 29, 2010 2:51 pm

"Why do you people attempt to complicate $hit?"

I don't try to complicate things. I try to keep things as simple as possible. And, this is not a complicated issue.

The answer, whether you like it or not, is...IT DEPENDS.

It depends on the number of people on the crew(s).
It depends on the skill level and experience of those people.
It depends on the type of job they are working on.
It depends on how far the job is from the office.
It depends on the weather.
It depends on the terrain.
It depends on whether I'm able to focus 100% on the job or whether I'm in the middle of caring for my wheel-chair bound mother.
It depends on whether someone on a crew is able to focus 100% on the job or whether he or she is going through a nasty divorce or trying to quit smoking.
It depends on whether the people on a crew get along and work well as a team or whether one of them is an a$$hole and the others don’t like him or her.
It depends.

"It is really a simple question"

No, if you insist on a specific number, it is really an irrelevant question.

"I am asking for your opinion as a Professional."

And you got it.

Sicilian Cowboy

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Best Answer of All

Posted by Sicilian Cowboy on Sep 29, 2010 4:19 pm

"Maybe you should get your license, oversee some work, and then come up with your precise number. "

AAAAA-men

RADU

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Re: "direct supervision " of survey crews

Posted by RADU on Sep 29, 2010 6:39 pm

Here in SOZ Licensed surveyor supervision on graduates and instrument people is required. IP are meant to be supervised in the field at all times if carrying out boundary surveying IF experienced in engineering then not required to be supervised in field, but obviously the owner of firm supervises input and out put.

Graduate supervision is reliant upon their experience . IE a new raw graduate 100% in field and then as they learn procedures tapering after two years to limited field supervision prior to their professional assessment project prior to being issued a license. At all times the LS is aware of what graduate is doing as they are contractually bound with a Surveyors board agreement to document work and both report to board over work experience.

The problem for solo today is that it initially means that the LS can generate minimal income because of the supervision. Training has become / is a real problem with the emergence of so many solo operators .

I put this preamble to then be able to answer the Q with one!

RADU

RADU VALUE ADDING SURVEYOR