Boundary Survey prices--I"m baffled

  Hi All.
I just lost a bid for a survey and am wondering about the comment made by the homeowner.  I am considered "far too expensive" and this baffles me.  I am wondering what a boundary survey goes for these days nationwide 'cause it sounds like I'm completely off the mark.

Any answers?  Ballpark, of course, price to be all inclusive:  2-3 acre subdivision lot, must file a plat if any monuments are set, snow on the ground, tree cover, very steep hill on one side, and a private driveway with angle points--can't see the property from the main road.  Property about 15-20 miles from office.  No recorded surveys for any abutters, just the 29-year-old subdivision plat.  In PLSSia.  

Hermit- I have been asserting for some time now, that we have reached or are at least approaching a "fork in the road" with respect to the "traditional business model" surveyors have been using. But even more troubling is a potential client making a claim that you are "considered far too expensive". How would a client get such an impression? What the going rate for a boundary survey may be is determined by local conditions. I doubt getting an average from different locales will answer the question adequately.

A better indicator might be the cost of running the field crews. A firm with a larger overhead has to factor that in. Beyond that is an estimate of how much work is actually involved. People who offer lower fees usually have lower overheads. Sometimes they have done recent work in the neighborhood and can leverage research already performed. Absent those two legitimate conditions, the real question is "What's wrong with this picture?"

If you are "considered far too expensive" how is the individual who made that assertion viewed? Professionals should not be volunteering any such "information" to clients. Here (California) it could be viewed as an actionable ethics breach. It may be okay to hold in question where another surveyor sets his corner, but how much he charges to set it in fairness should be considered privileged information. This is after all a private contract.

It's the client's money, and if he wants to operate solely on the basis of the "low bid" it needs to be pointed out that there could be some liability that goes along with that. We definitely should be "selling" a quality product and standing behind it. Much work needs to be done in the coming years with respect to the education of our clientele. This is another example of why.
MLB

  I wanted an average so I don't put anyone on the spot. 

I know how much a field crew costs to run--or I thought I did.  For this survey, however, I would have been doing it myself--field and office work.  I'm just wondering if I should be charging something like, maybe $500?  $90?  I think a national average would incorporate those areas where services are less expensive and that is what I want to know--not the high number, but the low one.  I heard/seen surveyors say that they won't pull out of their driveway for under $500.  Wondering if that's still so? 

Yes, I know that there is no set price nor will there ever be.  I am just wondering if I am so completely off the mark that I should be revamping my thought process on the issue.

My price would be between 2K-3K, depending on what the research turned up.

Mountain Hermit, The strange beast that has entered the business world is,  "that I want something for the least amount because some idiot has insisted that I need it!"

With "I am dictating the shots" attitude, that is ignorant of associated production costs and the extent of the liability.

If I feel inclined after a knock back ( albeit likely to get no response these days   )  I will open a short discourse  on how they deduced "far too expensive" 
and simply state that unlike building a house from a complete set of plans where every piece of material can be taken off and costed that it is not the case with surveying as we simply do not have all the materials or quantities . As you well know terrain, existing survey information plans and marks are great unknowns. This has to be simply stated.

Then say that your fee is based upon your professional integrity and experience , not about winning a job at all costs.

Then I simply wish them good luck!

As for average fee... that depends !


RADU

Getting Joe Public to understand what they are buying is pretty hard. I've seen hourly bids get more acceptance than a blob number.

It is not apparant from your posting whether you lost the job to another surveyor of if the client just decided not to go ahead with his project when he found out the true costs. Our number one competitor is always the option the client has to do nothing, or to go ahead without a survey.

RADU:

Good reply.

Thanks, all, for the replies and perspectives.  I think I'm getting over it now and starting to see some signs I missed in my confusion.  I have gone over numbers and calculations, and I gave a very reasonable price for the job I offered, the details of which were outlined in my proposal.

The bid was lost because a friend from the client's work (construction) went to the site and allegedly did the survey while I was still drawing up a proposal.  Mind you, that we had two days of snow during that time on top of quite alot of snow that was already on that site, and the client was out of town for part of the week before being able to meet with me--which never happened.

In short, I think I have been subjected to a fairytale.  

I got lowballed and if that other "surveyor" actually did a survey while I was writing up a proposal, then he is the fastest, most talented surveyor I have ever heard of and should be talking to the Guinness Book of Records people.  It only slightly soothes the sting of being told that I am far too expensive to be considered for any future work with that client (did I tell y'all that part?).  This is a recording state, so I will be interested in seeing the survey that comes from this other practitioner assuming it actually is a survey and gets recorded.

There is a guy in the Cleveland area doing boundaries for $200. It is posted on his web site.

There is a guy in the Cleveland area doing boundaries for $200. It is posted on his web site.

There is a  guy in the Indiana State Penitentiary that was doing "fence line stakeouts" for $200, but that is a different story..

The latest pet peeve,  is that people having engaged a surveyor  then have second thoughts on their fee and get  a check comparison price, with out having any intention of using your services. They are happy if you are over the fee that they already have or  become depressed if below.

I try and apply the same logic that I use when quoting a survey when engaging a service provider, say like a plumber.  They need to make a fair profit in, resolving my problem.

If I expect to screw a service provider then I can only be expected to always be screwed as a provider  of surveying.


RADU

Our prices have dropped back to what they were in the late 90's (FL), and we are still losing jobs.  Fly-by-nighters are what kill the profession.  Every job has a worth, and that is up to the individual surveyor.  The leaving the driveway for no less than $500 may have worked a few years ago, but in places hard hit by the housing bug, less than $500 don't sound too bad right now!  I think most companies around here are in survival mode.  I met a crew the other day that was the LS and a CADD guy out surveying.  LS told me he hand't been in the field in 20 years, and at one time had 10 crews (mid-2000's)!  Now it's just him, a receptionist and his CADD guy!  :o  This question is tough to answer in these times, as most of us haven't seen times like this.

I'll add to the question though.  Do you think it's unethical to call and ask for quotes from other surveyors posing as someone who needs their property surveyed?

V

Really?
There is a guy in the Cleveland area doing boundaries for $200. It is posted on his web site.
I haven't seen the web site, but is that a hard $200? We have guys around here advertising brake jobs for "As low as $99". The consumer advocate guy on TV says some of those $99 brake jobs end up costing the consumer $1500.

In some ways we have done this to ourselves. Several surveyors have told me "Boundary surveying is largely a labor of love. We make our money on construction layout and topo jobs".  Well those times are certainly a changin'. Of course not everyone is in that camp. But boundary "bidding" is a sticky business. Low ballers have been around forever. When times were good there was some grousing. But there was plenty of work during the housing boom.

There is not likely to be a new housing boom on the horizon for some time now. So it seems fair to explore the concept of the "typical" survey business model. One of the reasons low ballers are able to survive is what I call the technician mentality. In this case Hermit learns the client used a contact from his construction business. And you cannot really blame the client. Face it, surveyors marketing strategy sucks. At least the guy in Cleveland is struggling with a marketing concept. Much surveying business is done via client referral, such as in the case described here.

So a fair question might be, what do we have to do to change that? We could start with trying to look at our "image" from the other side. How do potential clients view surveyors? Why is Hermit "far too expensive"? When you are working for a developer creating a new subdivision, your role as a surveyor is pretty well defined. But that isn't where most of the low balling happens. It happens when a property owner needs to have an existing property resurveyed.

There are several triggers for this, depending on where you live. If the survey is considered a "formality" such as in the case of a mortgage survey you get grouped with the other folks in line who need to have their boxes checked. Neither you nor the client is "driving the bus" in this case. The Title Company or Lender needs a "cookie cutter" formula "survey" to meet the requirements for funding and/or title insurance. They act like a Health Insurance Company and try to fix prices as reasonable and customary to suit their needs. And those needs rarely if ever address the requirements of the state licensing Board.

So who are we? Some would say we are like dentists, because we only get called when someone has a property toothache. Some say we are like a lawyer, because we are only necessary when there is a dispute. Others like to characterize us as plumbers, because we mostly respond to something leaking or something blocked. All of the above charge for any visits.

No, to the owner who wants to know where his property line is, we are like a tax. The property is already there. And nobody likes a property tax increase in the form of a survey. He just needs to know exactly where it is. He would go to the GIS and do it himself, if he could. Some try. But when he can't, he HAS to call a surveyor. Even though he doesn't really know what a surveyor is. He has a problem he really doesn't want. Nobody calls you just to "get it surveyed". There is a reason. That is why the first question to a client should always be , "Why do you want your property surveyed?" You should'nt even talk about a price until that is established.

We all (or most of us know) all surveys are not created equal. Most clients don't. And that is what has to change.
MLB

Karen,
 
At the risk of going off on some tangent or forbid, some soapbox ranting, I will share some of my thoughts on this matter, many echo MLB above.
 
The fork in the road that MLB speaks of is the same as I refer to as a pivot point or worse, the breaking of the camels back. This surveying industry can no longer sustain the dreadful business model many surveying firms have succumbed to practice these last couple years.
 
The economic condition that we find ourselves in today has literally kicked the leg of the tripod and many a good surveyor has fallen. Some have been able to catch it and continue to function, but for how long? A good business model and sound business practice will continue long after the shortcomings of a faulty business plan.
 
Unfortunately, I have observed licensed surveyors closing their doors and the financial & emotional distress is beyond awful. It is horrible to be witness to the conditions of today. I have seen surveyors leave this profession, surveyors fighting with one another and blaming others for their own shortcomings, I have seen surveyors' spending their retirement money to cover payroll, I have seen surveyors lose their homes, surveyors turning to alcohol, surveyors loosing their faith and surveyors loosing their families. No matter how you cut it, this is bad. The problem is systemic, affecting each of us.
 
It is not until we recognize what the underling contagious virus is, that we will be able to begin to treat the malignant cancer that has infected our profession.
 
I believe that the degradation of our profession (in part) can be attributed to (not in any particular order): 1) public misunderstandings of what we do; 2) surveyors not adequately explaining to a client what we do and how we do it; 3) surveyors engaging to price haggling; 4) the profession allowing bad surveyors to continue to operate.

Ron, CoPLS

 
3) surveyors engaging to price haggling; 4) the profession allowing bad surveyors to continue to operate.

Here in FL, all these guys get is a slap on the wrist.  I had a client come in today with a survey by my competitor that wasn't even a CADD drawing.  I know I know, nothing wrong with it, but folks it's 2011 for crying out loud!!!!  I love hand drawings, hell it's how I cut my teeth, BUT my field notes look better than this thing.  It was awful and I was ashamed to say I was a surveyor if they let this guy have a license.  When did the bad apples come into the profession?  Why?  How do we get them out?  I'm all ears, I don't see an end to it, so long as we allow this crap to be circulated with the title "Boundary Survey" on it!

V 

I hear ya, Vader.  But, this surveyor that allegedly did the work might be very good and just pricing low 'cause he's friends with the client.  On the other hand, I do think that the Board needs to be more proactive in helping clean up the profession.  I too have seen "surveys" that aren't even up to improvement certificate standards and aren't recorded, and I've had to work behind them. 

I also agree with both COPLS & MLB.  We have attained the status of "burden" rather than "asset" to potential clients.  In the last year or so, the only calls I have been getting are the result of encroaching neighbors or government-required surveys for building permits.  The latter is a matter of concern for me here because the planning and zoning offices tend to accept ILC's (mortgage certificates) in place of boundary surveys.

I've been giving some thought to RADU's last comment.  That might well have been what happened.  Was it unethical?  Who knows?  Is Joe Public required to be ethical?  I once tried to switch lawyers on a case many many years ago.  The second lawyer told me that as long as I had retained lawyer number one, he would not speak with me about my case because it was unethical.  I fired number one and never called two back--got guy number three and he was a charm.

tallison:
There is a guy in the Cleveland area doing boundaries for $200. It is posted on his web site.

There's a firm in my area (MI), with this on their website:

Mortgage Reports: $150
Boundary Surveys: $250

For 24 hr turnaround, the rates are $200 & $300 respectively.

The only qualifier to these web page prices is "typical platted lots within service area" - the sad thing is, this has been advertised as such for last 3-4 yrs. These rates are comparable to what a roto-rooter service would run you on a clogged toilet! i can't for the life of me remember why it was i went into surveying.

I had that same survey last week, but the Florida version.  POB 2000' on other side of swamp, rear three corners in that swamp, private easement for access and deed overlaps at sw corner.  850 won't get it, but why pay that much when a sealed piece of paper can be had for 400.  The pob won't be tied, access to a public roadway won't be shown, no problems will be found or shown and set corners won't be.  The banks are happy, the title companies are happy, the client's happy and the surveyor that drew the sealed paper complains like crazy that lowballers are killing him (her). 

Florida had a chance last year to reduce this problem by recording surveys.  I come to this conclusion by believing that a Department of Agriculture desk jockey can (might) look at the county clerks records each Monday and not like some of the sealed pieces of paper he (she) sees.  Most of the surveyors that matter complained vehemently that the 5 dollars and the 5 minutes required to file would be a troublesome burden.  I'm thinking that if each group has something to complain about, then no action can make any group happy, resulting in no need to do anything.  But what do I know, I can’t even do a survey for 400.

In response to "...a survey by my competitor that wasn't even a CADD drawing".  My estimation of the percent of registered surveyors who are ignorant of the "fundamental law of original corners", and it ramifications, is 80%.  This same 80% are proficent in Auto Cad and GPS, which are a career in themselves.  Is there a relationship here?

You better look out for the surveyor still hand drafting his plats, he will probably blow you away in court. 

Knowledgeable boundary surveyors have not seen a downturn in thier work or the prices they charge; they are in high demand fixing all the screw-ups by the surveyors who refused to read or entertain the writings of Jeff Lucas.

Chad Erickson

My company supplies general survey services to five client types/revenue streams:  municipal, commercial, environmental, telecommunications and residential.  I can always tell the residential client because the first question after hello is... "How much does a survey cost?"  I dont need to tell surveyors how silly that question is.  But it does provide an window of understanding to that type of client.  Our company is one of the few who will serve the residential market because   a.) they often have no budget whatsoever.  b.)  they have little understanding of what we do or what is involved or even the liability we shoulder with each project; therefore the issue/question of "value" is immediately the key.   c.)   in addition, their survey motivations often involve contentious boundary disputes and issues of prescriptive rights and sometimes adverse possession.  (and issues of pride as well)   d.)  the residential client has been trained  to call around to get the best price for such services as plumbing, hot water heaters, garage door replacements, fencing etc.  why would they consider doing anything different for their surveying needs?    It is our responsibiblity to teach perhaps even in a proactive approach by getting out to our communities to inform and instruct and build relationships.

The other factor of significance would be (as mentioned earlier) the lack of professionalism combined with the willingness of some surveyors to discount their services in a race to the bottom.  I contend this has always gone on, but has become of epic proportions in the desperate economy in which we currently toil.  We are struggling because of the lack of projects, the intense competion for the remaining projects, and the absence of profit within the projects.  Surveying services  have become a commodity.  Except for the clients who hold relationships and quality in high esteem, the market is generally without a sympathetic ear.   I have been told to "get over it, make it work, this is the new economy."  I have noticed that "making it work"  apparently means  one-person survey crews and in many cases ignoring state and federal labor laws as well as abandoning good sense and concern for the safety of field crews.

So, what's the answer?  In my humble opinion it is doing what is right, teaching our clients (there is opportunity in that),  taking the time and effort to find violators and holding bad surveyors accountable, and making (under-resourced) State Boards step-up to the enforcement role that is their duty. 
that is my 2-cents worth. 

Blessings brothers and sisters of the House of Survey 

"How much does a survey cost?"

I used to spend a lot of time trying to educate when I would get this one.  I got to the point where if that was uttered by the third sentence, I already knew I was too expensive for them. 

Some of my later conversations went something like this:

Ring, Ring...

Me:  Rusty Chain Surveys, Rusty Speaking.

Caller:  Uh, yeah, hi.  I need a survey.  How much does that cost?

Me:  A few hundred dollars to a few hundred thousand dollars.  What do you need?

Caller:  What? huh?  I just need a line marked out on my lot.

Me:  Oh, OK, a boundary survey.  Is this a residential lot in a subdivision, a town lot, or rural acreage.  [starting to overwhelm them with questions now]

Caller:  A subdivision lot, I think.  I'm in Xxxxxxx Park on Xxxxxx drive. 

[I may not be familiar with the particular property, but I happen to know that the patchwork of residential and commercial subdivisions that make up Xxxxxxx Park have varied histories ranging from being reasonably consistent with the filed map to the map being just a little better than a cartoon representation of the lots on the ground - a little but not much better than a Garfunkel scenario]

Me:  Well that narrows it down considerably.  That will be somewhere between $800 and $8000.

[I already know I lost them before they even started dialing my number.  This is the point where they know I've lost them because they've already spoken to an unlicensed guy who has a retired engineer rubber stamp for him or a licensed guy who works for the state dept of water resources or transportation during the week and does lot surveys on the weekends using state equipment, either of whom will do the job for $400 or less]

Caller:  OK, thanks, I'll talk to my husband and get back to you. 


It's almost always the case that the husband makes the wife call.  Neither has a clue about what they need or what it takes to do it, but the husband doesn't want to appear to be clueless, better to let the wife do that.  Wives are usually a little more secure in their cluelessness.  Actually, if the person is polite, especially if it is a wife that the husband dumped the chore on, I'll take some time to get enough particulars to find out just what they need and narrow the estimate range for her.  I'll explain a little of what goes into the project they are asking for and at least give her enough to have an idea whether or not the lowballer who gets the job is cutting corners and skirting the law.

If the caller is a know-it-all or is at all rude, I wish them the best of luck and end the call.  A couple of times I've gotten something like "You're twice as expensive as the other guy!", to which I reply "Yes, I know.  You get what you pay for.  Good luck with your project."  End call.

I won't join the race to the bottom.  If I'm to go broke, I certainly don't want to kill myself busily serving unappreciative customers doing it.  Besides, if I'm busy doing that, I won't have the time to devote to a genuininely decent opportunity to professionally serve a client if and when it comes.

Rusty is right.  You can smell a 'shopper' in the first 3 sentences.  I don't necessarily 'turn off' a shopper with an estimate of 'somewhere between $800 and $8000' though, because the public is generally not informed as to what is involved in a survey, and such a statement may seem arrogant.  I try to spend some time with the potential client to understand exactly what their problem is.  And it is always a 'problem', otherwise they would not have called.  It may be as simple as getting a checkmark on a loan application or as complicated as a trespass to try title suit..  I try to decide based on their conversation whether I can help them, and if not I try to refer them to someone who can.  If you develop a repoire with the person, ask enough pertinent questions, and propose a reasonable solution, you may not get the job because your price seems too high, but you will make a friend of someone who values your opinion.  This can turn into referral business that is more lucrative.  Example: "I called XYZ Surveying company for a survey of my lot for a refinance, and they were more expensive than the other company I ended up using, but since you have a serious survey related problem, I recommend you call XYZ Surveying because they seemed more professional and probably more able to handle your particular problem".  The key is educating the public.  Not by holding seminars, hosting websites or extravagant marketing budgets, but by taking the time to talk to potential clients and explain clearly what we do and how important it is to shop for value as opposed to shopping for price.

I was a principal in a large Engineering/Surveying firm for 7 years before I started my own small surveying firm 24 years ago.  I've seen both sides, large and small.  One thing I learned was to charge a reasonable fee, do a superior job, cultivate excellence in your employees, and communicate with your clients.  NEVER cut your fees.  In a tight market, cut your overhead, increase your efficiency, but Never, Ever cut your basic fees. To do so undermines the profession and your personal professionalism.  In the long haul, your professionalism will speak for itself to the real movers and shakers in the market.  It may take time, but if you consistantly produce superior surveys, the real market forces will recognize your name, and price will not be such a factor.  

You are not alone Mtn Hermit... it's been the same scenario here in Washington.  I do agree with Rusty Chain "I won't join the race to the bottom",  we still do Record of Survey for $1500 to $5000+ for 5k square feet to an acre, depending on control, vegetation, size, slopes, etc., and we sometimes do it for less if we have done work in the area. 

However, occasionally, I hear client say - you are 3x ,  (and sometimes) 10x higher than other surveyors..... (You get what you paid for).
In some cases, I do check back with homeowners (who hires surveyors for less)........ some of them are happy with their services & others are not. 
   no signed letters, just a verbal agreement
   ended up paying more at the end
   no drawings as the surveyor had promised
and/or
   no record of survey - just a drawing (thinking it was recorded)

Some of these surveyors I talked to don't even archive their projects & purposely don't recall performing the work after questioning them about their corners.
(no recollection whatsoever....)

It bothers me a bit, but that is just the reality with this economy......  

Occasionally, we still get the job even if we are a bit more than the other surveyors.  We send a very professional detailed letter along with  samples of a  quality recorded survey drawing  (a chance for a client to get samples from other surveyors to compare)

Wish you all surveyors, who perform quality work,  the BEST!!!