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Low Bid Survreyors

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Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by Hard Worker on May 17, 2011 3:58 pm

I know this subject has been broached many times before but I thought I would ask it and see if anyone had any ideas –
I am constantly faced with competing against surveyors that low bid surveying services. My personal feelings are that surveying is a professional service and that it shouldn’t be low bid – my state association plainly states: Surveyors should not engage in competitive bidding against other surveyors.
My state and local codes list surveyors with architects and engineers and exclude low bid for services.
My problem is that the local surveyors and many statewide think its standard to low bid services. The most recent surveyor in town even sent letters to some of my existing clients relating that they will beat any price quoted. My local government clients now automatically low bid most of their projects because of the trend set by low bid surveyors. I was especially disappointed when the US Coast Guard decided to low bid surveying services. Much of this is done through the prime – engineering company doing design.
The thing that really gets me is that most of the engineers I deal with think its standard to low bid surveying services also. Has the current education system really reduced the respect for Land Surveyors to that level?
Any suggestions would be helpful.
I would like to say that to all that have decide to complain to the client about going low bid instead of through proposal, have you tried this? – I have and not once has it resulted in a better relationship with the client, it usually causes the client to loose trust in us because they think that this is a greedy way of approaching sales. As a matter of fact I have lost several clients because of this.   

Thansk for the input.
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Re: Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by Don Poole on May 18, 2011 8:11 am

This is an issue that affects all professions and trades.  From do it yourself home improvement all the way up to representing yourself in court.  There isn't any "cure" to make it go away, you can only rise above it.

Make sure that your existing clients uinderstand the value of your services.

Ask prospective clients what recourse is available to them if the "low baller" screws up ?

Ask "price shoping" yellow book  callers if they would chose a heart tranpsplant specilist based on price?  or a mechanic/plumber/lawyer?

Educate the public through outreach programs such as TrigStar, Survey USA.

Write letters to the editor on local relevent subjects such as the new FEMA/FIRM maps and potential impacts, or ALTA/ACSM regulations..

There is a lot you can do besides drop prices and copete along side.  Sometimes you have to just understand that there are folks with lower overhead and cheaper fees that will underprice you.    Develop your niche in something that they can't handle.  Such as court issues, gps, gis;  just anything that requires an 1)effort 2) consistentsy 3) long term effort  etc...  Low ballers are in and out fast and aren't there for the long haul.  You will be!!


Don Poole PLS
Outermost Land Survey, Inc.

"Outstanding in the field"
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Re: Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by Tommy Young on May 18, 2011 1:05 pm

The first thing I'd do is I'd send a letter out to my clients explaining that if they value the other firms low price over your service, you'll be glad to beat their price as long as you can offer crappy service.

Also, I'd send the Coast Guard thing in to ACSM.  It might not do any good, but they need to know about it.
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Re: Low Bid Surveyors

Posted by Rusty Chain on May 18, 2011 7:15 pm

First, realize that Mr. Young was joking in a sardonic way in his response.  You were, weren't you, Tommy?

Second, you're right.  Complaining to your clients is the entirely wrong way to go.  It's frustrating, but in their ignorance of what goes into doing a proper job and not realizing the differences in service or competence between licensed surveyors, deciding by price is perfectly reasonable.

In partial response to one of Don's questions, most do at least initially, decide on a plumber or mechanic based on price.  Less common with a doctor, lawyer, or other service that most recognize as a knowledge based profession (as opposed to a trade), but for trades it is quite common.  People don't generally use price as a lesser consideration until they've found a tradesman who delivers a clearly better product or service than his competition.  Until that happens, it seems to most that one is as good (or as bad) as the rest.  Isn't it rather apalling that we fall in the latter group as opposed to the former in the estimation of most non-surveyors?

I could go off on that tangent for a while, but I'll refrain.

If you know the quality of your work is superior to the cheap guys, then you might just let it go by saying to your client "OK, I understand.  But if you need somebody to fix it later, keep me in mind."  keep it friendly, project understanding even if you don't feel it, and wish them a good day and expect that some of them may come back later just for that purpose.  If you project resentment of your cheap competitors in any way, don't expect any of these clients to ever come back.  Your resentment of the cheap surveyor will come across to most as at least partial resentment and judgment of the client, and no one wants to come back to have you say "See, I told you so!"

Your State association code of cunduct doesn't hold much legal weight, especially when it comes to canons on how to charge for services or propose fees.  The members can voluntarily hold themselves to such standards as long as it doesn't creep into the realm of price fixing, but the association cannot impose that conduct upon non-members.  They would probably have a very difficult time doing so with members for that matter.

I don't know if any states still have laws similar to what is in your State association's code of conduct, but I believe some used to.  Showing violation of that would be very difficult unless one were to advertise "will beat any price".  If there is a codified or statutory code of conduct which addresses the practice of competing solely on price, contact the surveyor doing it and make him aware, take it to your local Professional Practices Committee if there is one, or take it to the Board.

It's not likely that any such laws still exist as they probably would have been determined to be unenforceable as restraint of trade at some point.  so you are stuck with the cheap surveyors, even the "will beat any price" guy.  It's just a condition of the business climate that, as someone else said, you just need to find a way to rise above.

Since the Brown Act, governments are not supposed to hire for professional services based on price as the prime consideration, but instead base their contracting decisions upon qualifications.  Most pay lip service to that requirement and get around it fairly easily in order to hire the low bidder almost regardless of actual qualifications or level of competence among those competing for the contract.  They have a rather cumbersome and involved submittal process.  If the prospective consultants can check all the right boxes, dot the i's, cross the t's, and provide the requested submittal documents in the prescribed formats without mispellings and on time, they are deemed qualified.  Anyone who successfully makes a submittal is generally considered to be equally qualified on technical grounds as all other applicants whether it's actually the case or not, so then the agency has to resort to the secondary consideration of price.  It's almost amazing how consistently that happens, and how often the "most qualified" also happens to be the low bidder.  I used to work for a local government agency that operated this way, had to manage the contracts and review the work for QA/QC.  I got pretty disgusted with some of these "most qualified" surveyors who couldn't get a job right often even on the 3rd try.  It was doubly frustrating when I knew the solid reputations of some of the unsuccesful competitors as compared to the very poor reputations of some of the "most qualified" according to the bidding process.

Funny how it's referred to as a "bidding process" with supposedly qualifications based government contracts.  I've never "bid" qualifications, nor can I imagine how one would go about doing so.  "Bid", as I underastand it, always refers to some sort of monetary competition.

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Re: Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by AverageJoe on May 19, 2011 5:31 pm

Rusty,

Its the Brooks Act, not Brown Act.  See 40 USC 1101-1104. and is only applicable to Federal contracts.

Note that the Simplified Acquisition Procedures as implemented by the varias agencies under the CFRs allows agencies using federal monies to include price as a criteria used for Federal Contracts under $100,000, thereby circumventing the Brooks Act for those surveying or engineering services less than $100,000.  For example, see 23 CFR 172.5(a) (2) for the FHWA imlementation of simplified aquisition termed "small purchase procedures".

Many states have their own versions of the Brooks Act for QBS, usually termed a "mini-Brooks Act"





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Re: Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by Rusty Chain on May 19, 2011 5:35 pm

Joe, you're right.  Brown, Brooks.  I started with the right letter and had the right amount of syllables.  Some days recall isn't quite as good as others. CA govt contracts are supposed to be qualification based.  I don't have the code reference at hand though.

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Re: Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by AverageJoe on May 19, 2011 5:42 pm

Rusty,

CA  Gov't Code 4525 through 4529.5 is the California way. 

Interesting to note that in CA they also include environmental consultants as being part of the A&E QBS. 

Jeff
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Re: Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by MLB on May 19, 2011 7:11 pm

In case anyone wondered about The Brown Act:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Act

In a thread posted here a couple of days ago, the keeping of job files beyond the prevailing statutes of limitation was discussed. The Brown Act was one of the reasons attorneys (in California) get nervous about people keeping job folders with references to phone calls, emails etc. between clients and providers. Third parties utilizing the FOIA have been known to file suits when there is "reasonable " suspicion their interests have been subsumed by the pricipal parties.
MLB
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Re: Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by AverageJoe on May 19, 2011 10:17 pm

I never would have thought the open meeting law for public officials would be cause for attorneys to take issue with potential evidence of meetings with more than 3 elected officials, off the public record, being found in a surveyor's job file.

I'll have to chew on that one some more,

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Re: Low Bid Survreyors

Posted by Rusty Chain on May 20, 2011 12:48 pm

Thanks for the reference, Joe.  I'll go get that off Findlaw and file it away in electronic memory for quick reference in the future.

And, Mr. Binge provided the reference why I had the term "Brown Act" in my head.  While I did not often participate in the meetings of the BOS, I did often hear the term used and invoked as I was preparing documentation associated with certain agenda items.  Good info, Mike.  There would be instances where survey items going before a Board covered under the Brown Act could mean that some portion of a surveyor's file might be pertinent, especially those of the surveyors in the employ of the local government led by the Board.  depending upon the consultant contract and whether the Board has direct approval authority, I can see that anything having to do with the RFP/RFQ and the submittals might also fall under provisions of the Act.

I feel slightly better in my earlier mis-reference that the Act I cited at least is related to the process as I once worked in it, albeit not in the capacity I was thinking of.


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