Job Hunting

There are six seniors that are set to graduate this spring form the Nicholls Geomatics program, myself included. It is kind of scary to look out at the job market from our position. I'd like to know what it is that the surveying community is expecting out of us. What kind of jobs do you, the professionals in the community, think we will be doing should you decide to hire one of us on?

As a reference, each graduate has about 2 years or more of experiance(usually split 70-30 field and office) between their internships and day jobs. We also are familiar with CAD, ArcView, and remote sensing in addition to being able to pass the FS exam.

It's not you. It's the economy. What is expected of you? To take any dirty job you can get in the businesss and hang in their until things get better. Things will get better.

For the record, when I entered the British Columbia Institute of Technology in the early 1980's the school was promising that every graduate had at least 3 job offers. When I graduated in 1984, 3 or 4 people out of 72 graduates in my program had jobs to go to. Myself, I went back to working in a kitchen. So I've been there, did that, and got the tee shirt.

I see it as character development. I don't doubt things are going to start comeing back, but its like a pincer between labor-reducing tech and a few, precious contracts. I'd like to try applying my skills to other industries, but its a hard sell.

Thanks for the responses!

Well, I tried to answer but my computer is a nazi sometimes and kicks me right out in mid sentence.

Here I go again:  times are very tough in surveying right now.  Take it as an opportunity to expand your horizons in preparation for when things get better.  Learn as much as you can about using ArcGIS, and if you can get a job doing some GIS, grab it.  It will help you as a surveyor and it will help the GIS'ers better understand the stuff they get from survey sources.

Check out http://www.sparconference.com/11/public/enter.aspx

Then you have to prove your education and also show that you are conscientious and able to learn a multitude of new tricks from wise old dogs.

As an old phart, let me say that the shotgun resume approach either snail mailed or emailed with reams of pages saying how good you are go straight into the bin.

Get yourself a web page with your particulars including a photo.

Prepare and print a page with a few basic on who you are, include a 3 inch head mug shot, highest education qualification and relevant experience (excluding every fast food and such places that you have ever worked in ), then do not forget the link to your web page . KISS!

Then footslog to sell yourself. Do not knock on a door early in day, as the larger companies will be arranging crew departures! If the boss is out or busy make an appointment with the staff.

Remember that small firms find it difficult to rigorously supervise and train graduates. Some initiative may be required to sell yourself to a consortium of small practitioners, so putting in your work week shared between surveying firms.  A potential win / win for all, as it is important to realise that you are not only seeking employment, but also receiving invaluable training so it may require putting yourself out.
 
Yes deportment is important. For we oldies, a neat clean cut image is what is required to be seen by our clients.
 
Good job hunting !
 
RADU

It is hard to devote all the time and money into a 4-year degree with the promise of a great career, just to be rewarded with an untimely market for the profession. Given the fact that states are changing licensing laws to make Geomatics degrees a requirement, and the aging "majority group" of current license holders, I have to think the demand for qualified licensed surveyors will increase in the coming years. Thats the hope...

I know the college I attended had a masters degree in GIS, which only required an additional 2 years for graduates of the Geomatics program. Other schools offer similar degrees or certification programs in GIS. The GIS community is growing substantially faster than the Survey community, but are they asking for our help. Have you thought about continuing your education to seek a GIS related degree/certificate? Just think, you will be more qualified, equiped, and valuable as an employee to feed more than just the survey community, and will be entering the workforce at what is expected to be a better economy in the next year or two.

What I wanted to know is what is the value professionals place on a degree. I've been made to understand that I will get treated the same as any other first-time hire in all the companies I'll work for. Not that I mind proving I can do the job, but it seemed off that someone would go through 4 years of school to follow the same employment tract that they would have otherwise. These degrees have a lot of knowledge backing them up, but I don't know how surveyors see us. I keep getting mixed messages from people and wanted to put my concerns out there.

Personally, I will definitely be getting certified, degree'd, and whatever else in GIS. It's just too useful and profitable to pass up. I get the equivalent of Arc Desktop 1, 2, and Analysis with my BS(something we have to be able to do by our 3rd year). And if ArcGIS keeps improving, I don't see why I wouldn't just use that software over other CAD programs.

I'm looking at Purdue and PA state's online masters programs for after I start making a decent income.

PS: Thanks for all the responses! They really help, and I pass what I learn here to my fellow students that have the same questions.

One of the biggest issues in today's market is what is included in the curriculum in that four-year-degree. Ten years ago many proffered the viewpoint that the mandatory four-year-degree and CEU requirements would "fix" the Surveying Profession. We can see in today's market that view was a bit short-sighted. Today, the operative phrase is "Life learning". We realize the impact advances in technology have had on our profession and certainly will continue to have.

But only recently have some educators begun to realize what has been given short shrift in some Survey/Geomatics curricula is the business and marketing component. It seems clear the world isn't exactly beating a path to our collective doorstep. That illustrates the deficiencies in our overall marketing strategies. By embracing the broader spectrum of the field and getting involved more in the GIS and Mapping areas we can expand our client base.

There will be a few who can continue to derive a marginal to decent income continuing on specializing only in boundary surveying. But we can see what happens happens with the ebb and flow of that market peppered all over these threads.

Diversification and better marketing strategies will be the key to success for future surveyors. If that is in your four-year-degree you will do better.
MLB

When I graduated some 40 plus years ago.....here in S OZ I was one of the earlier graduates and the first in the firm where I worked.

Yes, just as I had then, you too have the brain power BUT the bread and butter income of the traditional employer will require you to learn the business world of working in your survey career path.

HOWEVER iif you find employment in a new firm sitting at the forefront of technological surveying you may advance at a quicker rate.  Your first employment position must be considered as starting at the bottom and when you rationally think about it the broader hands on experience now will hold you  in good stead for managerial promotion as you will have rolled up your sleeves and dirtied your hands.

Education is theoretical and some times conducted in a dreamy world, so for some graduation results in a ground breaking thud as you return to the cut and thrust of the financial world.

For your information, that from my education I found it was school trigonometry, basic surveying, error theory, computer programming (where that uni’s only computer fitted into a small house) and  philosophy that was taught as a general elective that formed the basis for my future surveying career. Remembering GPS was not even on the drawing board!

Your formal education will now stand you in excellent stead to rapidly adapt to your career path as you too will embark into areas that are not even yet thought of or developed.


RADU

Degrees are important. ABET accreditation level is important.

Within Surveying there are 3 levels of ABET accreditation:  Engineering, Applied Science and Technology.  The difficulty of Math, Sciences and Physics decreases from Engineering to Applied Science to Technology.  The profession needs graduates from all 3 levels.

The more you stuff between your ears the more control you have over your future and the less anyone can take from you.

That being said forget the business classes, unless it is an MBA.

The majority of programs in the USA are not rigorous enough. They are typically Applied Science or Technology programs. Fine programs, but why not challenge yourself to the best? Top accounting firms, when looking for MBA grads, look for MBAs with engineering level undergrads first. They know how to solve problems. Forget the business classes in undergrad. Learn how to solve problems. Some on this board don't hire people and give advice anyway.

Give me a call if you want to talk.

It really depends on what surveying field you are going into.  If you are going into a field of surveying that does not always require a stamp, then the degree is not as important.   These days being able to do is more important than the theory of what you know.  I cannot remember the last time anyone in our office has stamped a drawing.

"...It really depends on what surveying field you are going into. ..."

Bottom is wide open.

Sure, don’t get a degree. Don’t get a license. Limit your career potential. <sarcasm off>
 
Seriously, that is HORRIBLE advice.
 
90% percent of the work we do, we do not stamp. The vast majority of the work we do, we could not do without degreed employees.
 
Invest in yourself, invest in your career, and invest in your future.
 
Get a degree and get licensed

Well I guess as a bottom-fedder I am not saying don't get your degree, as well I am not saying don't get your license.  I am saying surveying is a "do it" profession.  It is not a "degree" profession.  There are many professions where a degree means you instantly make 80g a year  (Mechanical Engineer etc.), surveying simply is not one of them. 

Now I don't have my degree, yet, and I am not licensed, yet.  I have a 10 year old daughter, I work more than the standard 40 and I am working my way through school.  I can guarentee you that I have more surveying experience than most of our life long professionals where I am located.  I can also tell you I make more than almost all of the them, mind you as a lowly uneducated licenseless person.  I was simply trying to point out that your degree is not the most important thing you have.  Knowing what you are doing in this field has more importance than any degree.  I do believe most states have only required degrees for less than 30 years.

For example, the last 3 co-ops we had from a local University did not know what a tribrach was.   I am sure for most surveyors that is what they look for in an employee (sarcasm off). Having the real world experience in this field is #1!  How many times has anyone asked the new guy, with the fresh degree and 2 years of co-oping  to lay anything out?  Or for that matter, layout new steel mills.

So if the intent of what I wanted to say did not come out as intended, I apologize.  If you do not happen to agree with me then so be it.  I also am not in any way trying to brag about my work.  I will just go back to working at the bottom now, I guess we all know what is thought of a guy that has a ton of experience and does not have his degree yet.  I think now that the bar has been set. I am going to let eveyone at work that does not posses either a degree or licenese know that we have to quit and start flipping burgers.  Although I am sure the boss will not be happy when all of the contracts us bottom-feeds have scored him stop coming in.

I do apologize again for being a bottom dweller with an opinion.

Stop worrying about bottom dwelling... yardy yardy....

I have said  all my career that  very little of what I learned at university is used in my day to day surveying.

That said and with a HUGE HOWEVER my formal education was broad , so that it gave me an appreciation and understanding to be aware , even if I could not resolve the problem, I knew that it needed a resolution from the appropriate professional.

You have cited about a new chum graduate not being able to set out a mill. That seems to be the common throw away type of  reasoning from the non graduate who are ignorant of what university  education is about .  Well I would say  that  I bet the first day that you worked for a surveyor that you were as useless as a tits on a bull and also that  there are plenty of experienced surveyors who would not touch that type of work  because it is not  their specialty of surveying. Furthermore with today's technology, the make believe surveyors can push buttons and get results. Not being aware of error theory and or potential error sources some can go for along time before the proverbial hits the fan.

I would throw in a curved ball  and suggeste a graduate on obtaining experience is more than likely sooner given the interesting jobs and sent away to liaise with clients, based upon their overall education, communication and problem solving skills.

As an old phart who graduated over 40 years ago here In SOZ  I can say that once you graduate and obtain your license that you will change your attitude to education, as I would read into your post that you are diligent, but in a small arena  of surveying that you have chosen to specialize in. 

You post  that you are educating yourself which is absolutely fantastic, so start channeling positive vibes and stop worrying about bottom feeding...


RADU

I have to agree with Sprint car on this, I'm a U.K surveyor and although not formally qualified I did do a four year apprenticeship with a respected company. I'm now nearly 30 years in the profession working at home and in the Middle East and ran my own business for 17 of those years. As an employer I wanted people that could go out and do a job and earn the company money, that's what business is about. My experience of graduates (in the U.K) was an expectation of higher wages just because they had a degree, the fact that on the whole they couldn't even set up an instrument didn't occur to them. It all depends on the person, if you’re willing to get out in the field, get cold, get hot and sweaty, get down and dirty you'll learn more in a year than in four years in college. You’ve learnt all that theory now you need to learn to put it into practice and that’s a whole new experience. Most graduate surveyors back home aim for a desk job almost right away and spend their careers filling in paperwork, writing method statements, in local government jobs or as salesmen. If that's the type of life you want then yes, you may earn more money at times but when times are tough employers will want and always will want a guy that can go out and get the job done. I’ve never been out of work in 30 years and can setup a total station in less than a minute (if the bubble gods are with me).  Good luck with which ever direction you go in.   

My best record for an instrument setup was about 45s. I was beat by my field supervisor, who got it done and leveled in about 30.

right now, having lots of experience may be detrimental. Using your example, when you were learning you could get everything down just by doing fieldwork under a competent boss. A new GPS unit is geared for ease of use, but I've seen experienced field crew skip all the steps in the manual because they learn by doing. This always ended up with the field crew making stuff up about how the tool works, and usually results in bad observations which are only caught by the best draftsmen. New tech makes field learning professionally dangerous, which is ironic as field work itself is becoming obsolete as RS and robotics become more capable.

I understand your point of view, and it would make sense except I see the work moveing from the field and into the office.

Saving 15 seconds per instrument set up over 20 set ups in one day, saves a whopping 5 minutes per day. I am much more concerned that the employee understands a procedure and why we follow the procedure as opposed to simply following the procedure.

It is much more important to know what, when and how equipment performs than to simply know how to push buttons.  The nuisances of knowing the equipment “what, when and how” performance will save a company much more than 5 minutes a day.

Typically, the more education an employee has, the better they understand the "theory" and hence the better they understand the nuisances of the equipment.

That being said, we have employees with various levels, and combinations, of experience and education. We value all of them.

RADU, I have a huge chip on my shoulder.  Always have and always will.  I thrive on people doubting me and telling me that I can not do something.  It pushed me where I am today, and where I have been in life, you would be amazed. Failure is not an option for me.

I used the Mill as an example.  I could have said a 1000 acre topo, or billion dollar refinery.  Experience wins in almost every situation.  And you are correct in saying I was worthless as tits on a bull (although in Ohio we refer to the Boar Hog).  However, that was many moons ago and currently I am heading up our 3d scanning and modeling, while still doing layout projects with big price tags on a regular basis.  I also meet with the company principles on a regular basis.  I don't have all of the answers and I know that.  Being humble is something my grandpappy beat into me at an early age.  Being made fun of and getting runover are worth fighting over, I am sure you can tell.

Again, I have never said DO NOT GET YOUR DEGREE!  

I would also like to make sure you understand.  I am uneducated in the art of surveying, I am also unlicensed.  However I am not completely ignorant nor am I completely uneducated.  I am already on career #2. And actually career #1 just took me to Parramatta this January for a short little vacation.

At any rate, I thought I learned my lesson about this board and some of the people on it.  I stopped even looking at this board for a very long time.  I cannot stand people that always think they are right.  Even when you can prove they are completely wrong.  I do however enjoy reading what you have to say.  I like getting opinions from people that have been doing this job longer than I have been alive.  Heck, you have been in business longer than I have been alive. Have a good day sir and thanks for the persective, I am out. GO BUCKS class of '99.

 Agreed Mike, although you're taking my 'setting instruments up' point a little too literally, It's just I always found it a good indication of someone’s field experience. If a job applicant comes in saying he has 10 years site work under his belt and you take him to the car park for a quick assessment and he struggles for 15 minutes to get the machine level it’s a fair bet his C.V isn’t too straight. I'm not saying you don't need the theory; my point to Andrew is you need both theory and practical field ability to be a good surveyor. And I second both you and Andrew's points about the danger of button pressing. Having been raised on Wild T1’s and 2’s and then having to calculate and plot my own co-ords or radials before the heady days of processing software and Cad drafting, modern total stations can be dangerous weapons in un-trained hands.  
Andrew, you clearly have the blessing of the bubble gods, go forth and survey...

I think the thread is about job hunting, so I will attempt to offer some advice along those lines and resist my urge to comment on others comments.
I think the question was how do potential employers see a candidate with a degree verses a candidate with no degree. Well I would venture to guess employers with degrees value a potential employee with a degrees more than employers with no degrees. Birds of a feather flock together. I do not hold a degree from a university and would not require a potential employee to have one, unless I was looking to hire a doctor, lawyer, civil engineer, CPA or a potential professional land surveyor for my firm. Currently I don't need any other land surveyors that can stamp or oversee operations. I would recommend to a recent graduate to seek employment at a surveying and engineering firm, I have noticed the engineering firms don't really put to much effort into producing quality surveying work and it would be much easier to climb the ladder there than at a firm that needs to produce quality work in a short amount of time and all the PE's have degrees and would begin promoting you before they would promote employees who are more qualified for the position, but do not have the degree. If you are looking to advance in your career join the engineering/surveying firm, you will find it very conforming to your degree. The bigger the firm the better, you can bide your time in a large firm for years and slowly climb the ladder while gaining the experience required to obtain your license. My ultimate point being the large engineering firms have the funds to carry employees while they get up to speed, if ever, rather than a strictly surveying firm that needs all the employees to hit the ground running and perform at 100 percent day in and day out, because the future of firm depends on it.

I can only comment based on my own myopic, limited experience of four years with one fairly large (ENR top 200) engineering firm.
I would temper any hopes and expectations for your post-education employment.  Education can open a few doors for you--office cred, if you will, but there will be no coronation for the hiring of the well-educated FNG.  You may find that with some people your education is proportional to their resentment of you, and such types will relish any opportunity to take you down a notch, especially in the realm of field cred.  
You sound like a smart, ambitious dude, but I also sense a little bit of entitlement.  If you smell even the least bit entitled, you will be hated by most of your coworkers.  
I think the early years of work are about trying not to be a know it all who hasn't done a thing.
Humility, self-deprecation, and hard work even on menial tasks are things that will win over your future coworkers.  Your education is just beginning.    
 

I'm all about working hard, and am very used to having to  prove my quality. I know I come off as an ass sometimes, but I'm hit by a combination of emotions that make it hard to be fair. It's going to take a while to get right with the "old guard", but honestly I don't think there is much time for grandfathering in a new way to work. I look at the data sets the computer vision guys make to navigate their toys and thank God that their not interested in Surveying. That's your field crew on four wheels, and that was being done 10 years ago. The quality of that information, if done correctly, is way better than a person could ever be. Adapting it to the rigors of our profession is something that is hard but not impossible, especially once the military retires its current generation of field bots.

I would love to work from the ground-up by proving I can do what I say I can do, one day at a time. I'm worried that in the traditional 5-year process some computer nerd is going to figure out how to do my job with a robot, and I don't want to be replaceable like that. As spatial info becomes more necessary for everyday life, that window of opportunity keeps getting smaller.

I feel your pain, and yes more than likely you will probably start out at the bottom like any other person who walks up looking for a job. However, your journey to the top may be a much quicker one. Just be open and show them you can hard just as hard as anyone else. Go the extra mile.

I graduated with a BS in the same type degree you are getting back in 2005. It was not until then did I realize that my entire 4 years in school had been wasted. I was paid $12 per hour the first 9 months after graduation with 3 years of part-time instrument experience. Don't get me wrong. I am now licensed, very blessed, and compensated decently, but could be in the same place, making the same salary or probably higher without that degree.

If I had it to do over again and I weren't going to be an engineer, attorney, doctor, or pharmacist, I wouldn't bother wasting my time with school.